D&D 5E Why do Monks only have d8 HP instead of d10 HP?
- Thread starter Slit518
- Start date
Minigiant's Martial Arts
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
- You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
- You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
- You gain one Monk Style of your choice. When you gain a level, you may change your Monk Style for another.
Air: When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action
Earth: When you are grappling a creature grapple a creature on your turn, you can shove the grappled creature as a bonus action. If you succeed in the shove, you also may deal bludgeoning damage equal to three rolls of your Martial Arts die.
Fire: When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can use your bonus action to deal extra damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die
Metal: When you use the Dodge action on your turn, you gain a bonus to your AC and Strength saves equal to your proficiency modifier.
Water: When you use the Dodge action on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike or one attack with a monk weapon as a bonus action
Nefermandias
Hero
It does indeed. Monk is in a really bad shape in 5e, don't get me wrong.
Nefermandias
Hero
Ki Fueled Strikes kinda does that.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
They effectively do. It's just expressed by their choice of Monastic Tradition at 3rd level.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Not really...
Kobold Avenger
Legend
They sort of get Two-Weapon Fighting automatically, but can't pick anything else.
For a martial artist class, in an ideal world, I would adapt either Blood & Fists, a d20Modern product written by Charles Rice and published by RPGObjects or the system or 2e Complete Ninja's Handbook (slightly revised from 1e Oriental Adventures) along with some related articles from Dragon Magazine. Both give systems for creating new styles with a variety of maneuvers, stances (I think there was an article for the AD&D system giving stances) and special abilities along with many examples of styles.
If going with the former, the book was good (and, imo, the bes MA sourcebook for d20/D&D), I would then go through through the Master Edition, fixing some of the styles brought in from the Hong Kong Knights (e.g. why did the new styles not get signature maneuvres). I also want to address why that some of the signature maneuvers from the original book are found within some other styles. I also need to fix a few styles as I know that they are missing several maneuvers (e.g. Arm Lock) shared between Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Jujitsu, and Kuk Sul Won, but missing from the Korean styles before going through references on some of the other styles to see what (if anything I can find) has been missed.
If adapting the latter, it has a few of its own issues to address before adapting.
Either way, I would also go through GURPS Martial Arts, Ultimate Martial Artists for possibly more maneuvers and special abilies (probably, both Ninja's & Superspies and Mystic China, for more special abilities (not the styles). Then I would go through several books,magazines, and websites on specific styles.
At the moment, I am wishing I did not give several of my old Black Belt, Inside Kung Fu, and other MA magazines from the 80s and 90s to my old instructor and sell/trade part of my marital arts library to a used bookstore.
If going with the former, the book was good (and, imo, the bes MA sourcebook for d20/D&D), I would then go through through the Master Edition, fixing some of the styles brought in from the Hong Kong Knights (e.g. why did the new styles not get signature maneuvres). I also want to address why that some of the signature maneuvers from the original book are found within some other styles. I also need to fix a few styles as I know that they are missing several maneuvers (e.g. Arm Lock) shared between Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Jujitsu, and Kuk Sul Won, but missing from the Korean styles before going through references on some of the other styles to see what (if anything I can find) has been missed.
If adapting the latter, it has a few of its own issues to address before adapting.
Either way, I would also go through GURPS Martial Arts, Ultimate Martial Artists for possibly more maneuvers and special abilies (probably, both Ninja's & Superspies and Mystic China, for more special abilities (not the styles). Then I would go through several books,magazines, and websites on specific styles.
At the moment, I am wishing I did not give several of my old Black Belt, Inside Kung Fu, and other MA magazines from the 80s and 90s to my old instructor and sell/trade part of my marital arts library to a used bookstore.
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niklinna
no forge waffle!
Well, 1e monks were monastic aesthetics, after all.
Undrave
Legend
Meh... I think it would be more fair to say 'Martial Arts' is a couple of Fighting Styles stapled together, but they're kinda lacking in customization options compared to something as simple as a Fighter.
Ideally, a Monk should be as versatile as a Battlemaster.
Mind of tempest
(he/him)
I want to make the fighting style something different from your subclass so that the latter is the mystical bit and the former selected early er is the martial artist, like an inverted warlock pact system with multiple martial arts so I can be a monastic enlightenment chaser who can know a choice of martial arts.
Really the issue for the Monk HD is a that a large percentage of the community see it as a a "rogue " class that can sorta fight. This included the designers.
So it was given a d8 HD, only 1 "fighting style", and a variant/weaker Cunning Action.
However all it's subclasses push the idea that it is a warrior class.
Basically D&D has to make up its mind
Either give it more expert stuff or more warrior stuff.
One of 5e's flaws is it ran it's design heavily on "feels" and cared little about the outcome making the "feels" translate to play. That's the source of monk, ranger, barbarian, and sorcerer dissatisfaction. We designed a warrior/expert that "stinks" at both.
So it was given a d8 HD, only 1 "fighting style", and a variant/weaker Cunning Action.
However all it's subclasses push the idea that it is a warrior class.
Basically D&D has to make up its mind
Either give it more expert stuff or more warrior stuff.
One of 5e's flaws is it ran it's design heavily on "feels" and cared little about the outcome making the "feels" translate to play. That's the source of monk, ranger, barbarian, and sorcerer dissatisfaction. We designed a warrior/expert that "stinks" at both.
Horwath
Hero
with only 2 base skill proficiency, no expertise, monk cannot be seen as an expert in any capacity.
add no armor proficiency and MAD unarmed defense with no access to heavy weapons with their martial arts, we also have a class that cannot tank or deal really good damage.
Only thing going good for monk is mobility
That's because it ran on "feel".
5e more or less took the 3e monk, boosted it's accuracy, and boosted it's resource mechanics. People were like "that feels okay" forgetting that the 3e monk was really bad, rigid,unfocused.
So the 5e monk is slightly bad, still rigid, and still unfocused. The decision of what the monk is and does the "feel" was never really made.
AmerginLiath
Adventurer
What strikes me as the basic reason is the balance between HP and AC, or more broadly the classes’ ability to absorb damage versus resist damage. The monk — between higher natural AC, deflection abilities, and bonus dodge actions — can avoid taking damage without the negative impact (weight, penalties, etc) of heavy armor that a fighter deals with. That same fighter has few avoidance tactics aside from being slowed down by heavy plate…or taking a bunch of ablative hits to his HP pool. Both are front line characters, but their play style is described in game math this way. The barbarian is the interesting middle child who gets a bit of both but whose abilities effectively make him choose between them (and effectively cost him the other in terms of making him recklessly easier to hit or an exhausted wall). It’s always the case in game design that what’s on paper in the game math is a way of presenting simply the effect of the narrative reality, not necessarily it’s full breadth (hence why you’ve historically had so many tropes buried within Fighting Men and Magic Users instead of a thousand classes with tiny differences). Something like the monk feels odd, but it (like the barbarian or even the paladin) represents a game concept more than a unified narrative concept and so can be used for many types of characters with some serial numbers filed off and abilities described differently without changing things in the system.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
The monk has a secret bonus: they can always pass off as a commoner. No weapons. No spellbooks or components.
That may not be relevant in combat only gaes, but in social and exploration scenarios or even in a fight that went bad, the monk is always at full capacity.
A shadow monk (which was the higher level monk mentioned) can also escape any bounds easily by shadow stepping at will.
That may not be relevant in combat only gaes, but in social and exploration scenarios or even in a fight that went bad, the monk is always at full capacity.
A shadow monk (which was the higher level monk mentioned) can also escape any bounds easily by shadow stepping at will.
Undrave
Legend
And then what? The problem is the they don't really DO anything with that mobility, unless they get real lucky and stun somebody. After level 5.
Higher natural AC compared to anybody else with no equipment, which is nice, but when everybody has their starting gear the Monk doesn't feel like he has 'high AC' at all. Deflection can be nice but is limited to ranged weapons attacks, meaning any sort of magical projectile is still a problem. And we discussed how Dodge doesn't forward your game state compared to spending it on Flurry of Blows.
Evasion is nice, but there's no reason it should come online later than the Rogue's.
BrokenTwin
Biological Disaster
Recently started a Curse of Strahd game as a Way of Mercy Monk, and... yeah. Really hoping this class becomes fun to play after we hit level 5, but I doubt it will. It feels like I'm having to burn through a limited resource not to do cool stuff, but just to be borderline competent. And the refrain that "well, you don't need to buy gear!" rings a little hollow when money stops mattering in 5E so quickly. Assuming your allies aren't scavenging their armor and weapons off of fallen humanoid enemies early on, in which case money doesn't matter almost from the get-go. And the negative impact of wearing heavy armor rarely comes up in comparison.
They can move quickly... but their movement abilities so rarely matter. It feels like this class was designed with so many ribbons that they forgot to actually give them impactful stuff to do.
They can move quickly... but their movement abilities so rarely matter. It feels like this class was designed with so many ribbons that they forgot to actually give them impactful stuff to do.
Well that's kinda the monks issue.
It is just niche abilities.
It is all part of a bigger D&D problem.
D&D takes cool ideas from all over fantasy and fiction but doesn't work on fitting it into gameplay until much later.
Undrave
Legend
Also my feelings exactly!
MAYBE if there was cool stuff to buy that you could get with the money you save on gear, but that's just not a thing in 5E really...
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