D&D General Why Do People Hate Gnomes?

It’s the newer lore which some interpret as “silly” and inconsistent with the tone of aome campaigns.

Looking back though, one group member had an evil gnome which was appropriately creepy.

But our new group has one. It is played by the person who used to hate them the most. And it’s turned out…cool. He is a wizard with the charlatan background. Yes, we laugh at him riding his mastiff but it has not changed the tone of the game at all.

He is a diviner and likes games of chance disguises and misdirection.

I personally think it is association with relatively more recent lore—-the steampunk “oh. O I blew up the house” stuff.

For us it’s a fey-Ish small race that is in tune with nature and good relations with dwarves and some shared culture.

It’s the lore’s fault going a way back. As I recall, Gygax was sort of shoehorning them in. I liked them as miners with big noses, affinity for nature and mattacks to hit giants in the shins with.
 

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I don't think this is what they are. I think they are prankster illusionist characters and tinkerers (which I wouldn't see as a mockery of science---though dragon lance executed that concept in a humorous way which I felt worked actually). I also can see them as eccentric academics. These are, in my opinion resonant and workable. At the very least they are as resonant and workable as 'arrogant and long lived forest recluses'
"Prankster illusionist" is resonant for an individual character; it can be very difficult or even impossible to pull off as a whole group characteristic. Even in an individual character, "prankster illusionist" is best used strategically. It gets old pretty fast otherwise.

"Tinkerer" can be resonant, but gnomes don't have enough going on with it. What are they tinkering on? Why? It's not enough to just say they tinker.

Whether or not their humorous depiction worked in DL, that depiction has become Flanderized in nearly every other fantasy-related work that features them, and the joke is rarely (if ever) executed as well in those works as it was in DL. The key problem being, in order to portray a tinker in a humorous way, you generally need to make them either incompetent or unsafe, and both of these are not very interesting as character traits in a TTRPG party, the former being frustrating and the latter being outright problematic. Yes, it can be workable, but there's a reason I made the analogy I made earlier to alternative sexual lifestyle choices: SOME people can do it, but a significant chunk of people who try it are not ready for it or aren't capable of handling the responsibility. Kender are in a similar boat on this front.

"Eccentric academic" is, again, relatively niche, though more practical than the previous ones. The main problem is that it pigeonholes most gnomes into being...well, Wizards, or Artificers. There's not really any other options.

I don't think the fantasy zeitgeist is a good way to decide what races ought to be in a game.
Is that what's going on here? It seems to me that, instead, people are presenting their understanding of why it might be the case that gnomes don't have a good reputation in the community. One or two have, as a result, said that maybe gnomes aren't really a great fit as a "first core book" player race, and would instead be more appropriate as a supplemental race, in line with something like tortle or minotaur. That is, perfectly valid and worthy of support, especially since they feature prominently in famous settings, but not really something that needs to be featured front-and-center.

I don't think I've seen a single person say that gnomes should be totally erased from the game. Even my proposal, which would "remove" gnomes, would simply merge them into the same group as halflings, while keeping most (though likely not all) of their unique features.

I think races that fit what the game is about and what you want people to be able to do with it (and what concepts you think will resonate and be useable) are far better than making races that fit peoples preconceived ideas from pop culture about gnomes, elves, etc.
Okay. That's completely valid, for designing your own campaign world. I support that sort of stuff all the way. But it seems to me that people are saying that the "need" (as much as one can speak of such a thing) for gnomes can be satisfied with a supplemental book, rather than the PHB.

I don't see how having a race that matches what a random persons idea of something in the street is, is especially helpful for that (I think that is how you get a lot of boring gaming material).
Because the game is not just a toolbox. It is also a product. Products need to sell. Things sell better when they appeal to the interests of a variety of customers. There's a reason (even though people got SUPER PISSED about it back in the day) that 4e left gnomes for the PHB2 rather than featuring them in PHB1. They just aren't particularly popular, and there are good reasons why they aren't popular, even if those reasons don't logically apply to EVERY world ever created.
 

"Prankster illusionist" is resonant for an individual character; it can be very difficult or even impossible to pull off as a whole group characteristic. Even in an individual character, "prankster illusionist" is best used strategically. It gets old pretty fast otherwise.

Personally I find this quite archetypal and think it works, but it is subjective. Any race that is always reduced to its stereotype gets old fast (see Beer! Beards! etc).
 

Fair enough. But that does seem to open the possibility for you of a pre-dragonlance style gnome working?
I mean they can work; D&D just hasn't actually tried thus far to make them a meaningful, coherent part of their worlds. They're just this obligatory thing they keep putting in by rote and trying to force it to become a thing, like 'fetch' or the thousand Gith wannabes 3e threw at us.
 

Is that what's going on here? It seems to me that, instead, people are presenting their understanding of why it might be the case that gnomes don't have a good reputation in the community. One or two have, as a result, said that maybe gnomes aren't really a great fit as a "first core book" player race, and would instead be more appropriate as a supplemental race, in line with something like tortle or minotaur. That is, perfectly valid and worthy of support, especially since they feature prominently in famous settings, but not really something that needs to be featured front-and-center.

I didn't think it was but that post was in response to someone saying the way to construct fantasy races is to look to the fantasy zeitgeist (I wasn't the one making the argument that this is what was happening)
 

"As far as gnomes are concerned, being alive is a wonderful thing, and they squeeze every ounce of enjoyment out of their three to five centuries of life. Humans might wonder about getting bored over the course of such a long life, and elves take plenty of time to savor the beauties of the world in their long years, but gnomes seem to worry that even with all that time, they can't get in enough of the things they want to do and see.

Gnomes speak as if they can't get the thoughts out of their heads fast enough. Even as they offer ideas and opinions on a range of subjects, they manage to listen carefully to others, adding the appropriate exclamations of surprise and appreciation along the way.

Though gnomes love jokes of all kinds, particularly puns and pranks, they're just as dedicated to the more serious tasks they undertake. Many gnomes are skilled engineers, alchemists, tinkerers, and inventors. They're willing to make mistakes and laugh at themselves in the process of perfecting what they do, taking bold (sometimes foolhardy) risks and dreaming large."
I really like this description on the PHB, specially the boldened part. This has helped me shape 2 PCs and a lot of NPCs in my 5e games.
 



Okay. That's completely valid, for designing your own campaign world. I support that sort of stuff all the way. But it seems to me that people are saying that the "need" (as much as one can speak of such a thing) for gnomes can be satisfied with a supplemental book, rather than the PHB.

I would say in the case of D&D it should be done for what fits the game concept and what will work for GMs over a broad variety of settings. Again, I think prankster illusionist, tinkerer, eccentric academic, these are all quite workable in fantasy campaigns (and you obviously add more depth to this).

Whether gnomes should be in a supplemental book or the core, is another issue. I think the best argument for them being int he core, is they were present long enough in the core books and long enough in most settings, that removing them from the core, was disruptive. I mean if you don't like gnomes, just take them out of your campaign. But making it so all GMs who want to use them, have to buy a supplement, doesn't seem like a good idea.
 

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