D&D 5E Why do so many DMs use the wrong rules for invisibility?

[Maxperson]

Well, no, because a silenced, invisible, flying creature in the AOE of a darkness spell would still not be automatically hidden, so 'not seen and not heard' isn't sufficient. May not even be necessary.

I have no problem ruling that a silenced invisible creature is automatically hidden without a hide action. The game explicitly calls out unseen and unheard as being hidden.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Agreed. Like Crawford says, for corner cases (magically silenced, flying, invisible creatures obscured in darkness fit that bill) you dont need the Hide action.

Same deal if they're invisible and out of hearing range. Corner cases.

But Bob the Wizard who casts invisibility mid battle? His location is known with sufficient precision for everyone else to attack him (at disadvantage) until and unless he takes the Hide action (as an action, unless he also has 2 levels of Rogue) and his Stealth check result trumps everyone elses Passive perception score.

Which, sadly, cuts against the tropes of invisibility. Which is why this is such a contentious issue. I just make invisibility work like the Predator. Eases the cognitive workload of conceptualizing a 100% invisible creature that everyone just knows is standing quietly right over there.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I have no problem ruling that a silenced invisible creature is automatically hidden without a hide action. The game explicitly calls out unseen and unheard as being hidden.

Well, that sucks for Keen Senses: smell.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, that sucks for Keen Senses: smell.

Why? Specific beats general. I wouldn't allow someone using the hide action to hide from a dog or other animal with keen smell. At least not without something extra to allow the hider to defeat the dog's nose. As [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] said, corner cases. I stated that I have no problem following the general rule that hidden is unseen and unheard, and you popped out the corner case of keen smell. There are virtually always going to be exceptions. That's what Specific Beats General and Rulings Over Rules are all about.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Why? Specific beats general. I wouldn't allow someone using the hide action to hide from a dog or other animal with keen smell. At least not without something extra to allow the hider to defeat the dog's nose. As [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] said, corner cases. I stated that I have no problem following the general rule that hidden is unseen and unheard, and you popped out the corner case of keen smell. There are virtually always going to be exceptions. That's what Specific Beats General and Rulings Over Rules are all about.

So, not automatically hidden, just hidden based on circumstances? I believe that's the start of the exact slippery slope that dominated this thread and was supposedly decided by Crawford's spoken words.

 

[Maxperson]

So, not automatically hidden, just hidden based on circumstances? I believe that's the start of the exact slippery slope that dominated this thread and was supposedly decided by Crawford's spoken words.

No. It is automatically hidden. Hidden does not mean undiscoverable or exception proof. When you get right down to it, hiding has always been based on circumstances. Are there people around? What is there positioning? What is around to hide in/behind? How is the lighting? What happens if the lighting changes and becomes brighter? Are the others perceptive enough to see you? And on and on. If that's a slippery slope, then the hide rules have already placed you well onto it.

 

[Oofta]

Which, sadly, cuts against the tropes of invisibility. Which is why this is such a contentious issue. I just make invisibility work like the Predator. Eases the cognitive workload of conceptualizing a 100% invisible creature that everyone just knows is standing quietly right over there.

That was covered in the podcast. It's quite possible that once the wizard is invisible, no one knows where he is - they may be paying more attention to the screaming barbarian.

The way I handle is that after casting invisibility in combat if the wizard just tries to walk away they get a free stealth check with disadvantage. Fail and they made too much noise, knocked something over, sneeze, whatever. It is very dependent on the situation, which is why I agree with the whole vagueness of the rules.