D&D 5E Why do we need saving throws?

[jayoungr]

Aside from it being a sacred cow, is there any actual need for saving throws? Is there any function that they serve that can't be served by a simpler attack vs. defence roll?

Isn't a saving throw just another name for a "defence roll"?

EDIT: Oh, I think I get it--you meant "a simpler attack roll vs [static] defense."

 

[Arnwolf666]

You like what you like in an RPG. I don't like 4E saves and won't play 4E. I like LBB, B/X, BECMI, AD&D 1E/2E, D&D 3.x, and 5E saves. So I play 5E D&D. You apparently like 4E saves so either play 4E or feel free to adapt 4E saves to 5E. It's really that simple. They are not going to rewrite the PHB for you. They didn't for me anyway.

 

[Tony Vargas]

.. feel free to adapt 4E saves to 5E.

4e saves were more of a random duration mechanic. 5e death saves are similar. 4e's non-AC Defenses are more what we're talking about here: a target DC for a creature or trap or poison or the like to roll an 'attack' against.

The benefit of adapting 5e to unify all attacks under a single mechanic is prettymuch eaten up by the need to translate everything complicated by the redundant mechanics to the simpler unified mechanic, since the 'everything' in question is spread throughout the rules, you have to do that more or less on the fly.
So a good design approach, but virtually pointless to apply as a variant. (Conversely, converting attacks to saves arbitrarily is at least working from simpler to more complex.)

The related, but quite distinct players-always-roll variant might be worth considering, though. It removes the arbitrary distinctions implied by what uses an attack roll vs what forces a save, but still leverages both mechanics, so you're not expending effort trying to squeeze the needless-complexity toothpaste back into the tube.

 

[Henry]

To turn it around, why aren't the players rolling defense vs. monster attacks? There's a game that does this (Dungeon Crawl Classics, maybe?) where the DM makes NO rolls.

Me, I prefer having it for (1) nostalgia and (2) as Morrus says, that subconscious feeling of having a say in my character's misfortune, even if mathematically it's no different.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, of course. But we're talking about the rules here.

Actually, it looks to me like the talk is more of butchering the rules....which means what they currently say or don't say is somewhat less relevant than usual.

 

[cmad1977]

Because it's ridiculous to have a stationary object like a pit trap making an attack roll?

Mimic pit trap being the exception


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[Ashkelon]

I would have liked the separation of passive and active rolls to be utilized more. A monster that attcks you makes a roll against your AC. A wizard casts forebolt at you makes a roll against your reflex defense. In those situations, the performer of the action is rolling the dice.

If the ground suddenly gives out from your fighter on a perilous cliffside trail, he would make a Dexterity check to avoid falling down. Because the fighter is actively working to avoid falling and the cliff is not actively trying to make him fall, the fighter is the one who rolls here.

In such a system most spells would be attack rolls against a creatures defenses. Casting a spell would be subject to the same penalties as attacking with a weapon such as suffering disadvantage when the caster is restrained or attacking a target with concealment. Spells could also critically hit their targets.

In such a system, many traps, hazards, or terrain features would have a DC that the creature who encounters it must make a successful ability check to avoid. These hazards are not actively attempting to hurt the creatures, but are rather events the PC is trying to actively avoid.

 

[Phazonfish]

Brace yourself and stand your ground: maybe a Dex save, maybe a Con save.

I'm not sure fire cares how hard you grit your teeth. I mean, you can still do this, but it won't save you any hp.

Drop to the ground.

Basically the same thing as the default dex save to dodge. Presumably you get up as part of the dodge to avoid making this a strictly worse option than the default.

Hide behind your shield.

This is already in the PHB as part of the dex save. See the feat "Shield Master".

Hide behind an object.

This is already in the PHB as part of the dex save. See the effects of cover.

Stand your ground and try to look tough so the dragon thinks you're impervious to fire.

I don't believe anything in the spell prohibits you from doing this. This sounds like a super rad idea though, I may have to steal it if I get a chance to be a player anytime soon.

Most are likely still Dex saves, but the results are different. The results are where the agency lays in something like this.

Other than that last one, the result all look the same to me. Avoid fire by dropping to the ground, result: damage avoided on success. Avoid fire by hiding behind shield, result: damage avoided on success. Avoid fire by hiding behind cover, result: damage avoided on success.

I don't think saves are there to limit you, they are there to give you fair, balanced default option, usually the one you would be most likely to pick in the first place. If your DM denies you from taking an option against a spell or effect that you logically should be able to take, that's more of a fault with your DM than the system.

 

[robus]

[MENTION=6863518]dropbear8mybaby[/MENTION] - just wanted to say thanks for asking this question. I do enjoy these dives into the mechanics and history and the game. Most enlightening.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Aside from it being a sacred cow, is there any actual need for saving throws? Is there any function that they serve that can't be served by a simpler attack vs. defence roll? I know the system justification for them and I'm not advocating getting rid of them, merely wanting to hear why it is they should be kept or if the system could be perfectly fine without them.

Why? Psychology. When an enemy takes an action that can wreck a PC and there's not a thing the player can do about it, that's severely un-fun. Helplessness sucks. When the player rolls a save, at least he feels like he can do something to prevent being hurt. Mechanically it's the same, but psychologically it's light years apart.