Why do we need thieves??

[Thomas Shey]

Given the amount of TTRPG's that don't have thieves, I'd say we don't need them.
Even DnD relegated thieves to a sub-class.

I have to note that most games that don't have them, do so because they're already subsumed in either the general system, or other character structures.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think "skill-based" in this paragraph is a bit of a misnomer. In many (probably most but I don't have any statistics) games, combat and magic are skills. I think you specifically mean infiltration skills (stealth, lockpicking, climbing, swimming, etc.)

No, I mean any skills not directly associated with physical combat, magic or technology (in a utilitarian role similar to magic). So infiltration skills, but also social skills, trade skills, and exploration skills outside of infiltration (like navigation, vehicles, and survival).

 

[dragoner]

I remember Traveller being "not OSR" because it has skills.

 

[Older Beholder]

I have to note that most games that don't have them, do so because they're already subsumed in either the general system, or other character structures.

Yeah, you’re right. The more I looked into the games I was thinking about, things like, Tales from the Loop even has a ‘Troublemaker’

I still wouldn’t say all games need them, but ‘scoundrel’ is a common archetype for hero/anti-heroes, for sure.

 

[Retros_x]

I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills

Doesn't your logic hold true for all martial classes? So why don't we just have two classes magic user and martial and do the rest with skills?

 

[GrimCo]

I'll take WoD as example of skill system. Combat is skill. Magic is skill. So is stealth, subterfuge, larceny etc. And while you get specific points at character creation for skills and magic/disciplines etc, you get freebee points that are used for everything. Once you start playing you get xp, which is again, used for raising everything, from skills to stats, to magic. Then, you need to choose. Do you wanna be all around mediocre and spread it evenly, or do you wanna specialize. Thief equivalent ( skilled character) is cheapest option, since skills cost less than stats or magic to raise, and while combat is skill, you do need to beef up stats also. So pick and choose.

 

[Jahydin]

So with a great deal of systems, I see a dedicated profession of thief. I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills. You could play a warrior, and rob people, take advantage of someone you caught off guard, a servant could walk away with important documents, or a locksmith could open locks. Debate me, and if you like thieves, what do you like about them?

Thieves and Fighters are distinct enough to warrant separate classes. Take away the skills and Backstab (the class's defining features) and you still have differences in HD, attack tables, allowable weapons/armor, and the use of magic.

There's a reason why Thieves/Rogues are included in just about every fantasy game (table or video) ever made and why they are all modeled after the D&D concept of: Fighter strong, slow, focused, and tanky; Thief fast, deadly, skillful, and fragile.

That is just surface level. Every edition of the game has it own nuances of why Thieves deserve to be a separate class. For instance, AD&D and demi-human muli-classing. Feel free to be specific and we can dig deeper if needed.

 

[Cadence]

Now I want to go finish watching the seasons of Leverage I never finished...

In any case, does it not need Thieves nearly as much as it needs Rogues (or something equivalent with a better name)?

 

[Staffan]

Even when Combat and Magic are also Skill best there are often have extra steps like using mana points or spell slots, and of course damage rolls and HP. So they not pure Skill use, in the manner of picking locks or investigate

Combat - Magic - Skill are thus the three mechanical systems used in RPG games to do things, they often overlap even to the point of all being skill-based, but there is often enough to distinguish the three

In games that have both skills and some version of advantages/perks/edges, both combat, magic, and "other" often use a mix of the two, though the mix is often different depending on your focus. But that's a matter of degree, not a strict delineation.

For example, a fighter-type in Savage Worlds needs the skill of Fighting and/or Shooting, as well as a decent Strength (for dealing damage – even weapons that aren't directly muscle-powered often have Strength minimums) and Vigor (to sustain damage). Agility is also nice because it makes it easier to raise the combat skills in question, and of course there are other skills that are useful but not core (e.g. Athletics, Notice, and so on). But much of the stuff differentiating one fighter-type from another is a matter of choosing Edges.

An infiltrator-type, on the other hand, is more skill-based: Athletics, Stealth, Notice, and Thievery are a must, Persuasion is good to have (as it also covers deception) and depending on the setting you might want things like Electronics or Hacking. There are Edges available to improve infiltration, like Thief or Acrobat, but nowhere near as many as the variety you have with different fighting styles. And of course, there are many other variants of primarily skill-based characters: investigators, faces, medics, and so on.

And finally, arcane power users are also more Edge-based. Each type of arcane power has its own Edge to unlock it, and its own skill (e.g. Spellcasting, Faith, Weird Science). There are some generic arcane Edges that are used for all sorts of "casters" (notably New Powers to increase your repertoire and Power Points to get more PP with which to activate powers).

But there's nothing preventing you from mixing and matching between these, other than available resources (every advance spent on New Powers is one not spent on increasing your skills). A "thief" can probably get away with a high Shooting or Fighting skill, but they probably don't have the resources to have both good Shooting/Fighting, good infiltration skills, and a bunch of combat-related Edges. So they won't be as useful in combat as a dedicated combatant, but they won't be useless.

 

[CleverNickName]

Now, if you want to argue that you "can do that with skills" the answer would be: sure. But then you have a skill based system, not a class based one, and it is true of everyone and every specialty.

I love skill-based systems. Class-based systems have their charms too, I'm not hating on them or anything...I just think skill-based systems are a little more elegant and streamlined. Especially for players who try to multiclass.