Why do you play games other than D&D?

[SableWyvern]

I reject the idea that Gumshoe's approach to investigation is "fancy".

If you have a skill, and think to use it in a place where a clue might be found... you find it.
If there's additional information, you can spend a point to get it.

That's not fancy. That's dirt simple.

Sure. I was referring to spending a limited resource. Fancy may not be the best word. It's quite different to traditional methods and (as I've seen it described) it feels very gamey to me.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think they can be.

If you are solving a mystery, then, you, the player, put the information the characters have found together, and follow their implications to a conclusion of who in the fiction did the deed.

If you are telling the story of solving a mystery, you, the player, need not actually figure out who did the deed. Who did the deed need not be determined before play begins. The process of play can generate the result, without the players having ever solved a puzzle.

I don't disagree with you, in principle anyway. I supposed where I begin to disagree is with the notion that Brindlewood Bay is the latter rather than the former, which it plainly isn't (setting aside notions of whether it succeeds at that design task). I can't think of a game that actually fits the second set of criteria. Without a game that fits the criteria I will probably continue to be leery, but there are lots of games I haven't played, so there may well be a whole host of games that fit the bill.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

I don't disagree with you, in principle anyway. I supposed where I begin to disagree is with the notion that Brindlewood Bay is the latter rather than the former, which it plainly isn't (setting aside notions of whether it succeeds at that design task). I can't think of a game that actually fits the second set of criteria. Without a game that fits the criteria I will probably continue to be leery, but there are lots of games I haven't played, so there may well be a whole host of games that fit the bill.

BB does fit the second, to the letter. I am not sure why there is push back on this. It's ok, and its choice and its fun that way. But BB is not a game that is about a bespoke conclusion. like, by its own admission and design. It's made up after the fact, and confirmed by random.

Maybe you create a second thread and we can all chat about design and play principles of BB (and some of its alternatives too), if you like. it's a fine game and deserves a little recognition.

...

I would at least turn the discussion of Brindlewood bay back on topic by saying it IS one of the reasons and solutions for why I don't play D&D. D&D has 0 mystery concepts/rules/anything at all

 

[Fenris-77]

BB does fit the second, to the letter. I am not sure why there is push back on this. It's ok, and its choice and its fun that way. But BB is not a game that is about a bespoke conclusion. like, by its own admission and design. It's made up after the fact, and confirmed by random.

Maybe you create a second thread and we can all chat about design and play principles of BB (and some of its alternatives too), if you like. it's a fine game and deserves a little recognition.

...

I would at least turn the discussion of Brindlewood bay back on topic by saying it IS one of the reasons and solutions for why I don't play D&D. D&D has 0 mystery concepts/rules/anything at all

Why would I push back? Because I think you are entirely incorrect. I know you think the issue is obvious, but given that there are many, many, fans of BBay who think the mechanics work marvelously as a mystery game, and who experience wonderful fulfilling games with it, I don't feel the need to explicate in any depth the enormous difference between your opinion and any kind of demonstratable fact (which are devilishly hard to come by when you're discussing how well a given RPG 'works'). We aren't talking about fact here, but rather opinion and experience, and thus there isn't really any real room for anyone, you included, to kvetch about 'push back'. You don't have any facts to push back against, just your opinion, which I cordially disagree with.

 

[Fenris-77]

For context, the Kickstarter for Brindlewood Bay and the BK for The Between (which uses the same mechanic) made three quarters of a million dollars. So obviously those games work marvelously well for quite a few folks. KS dollars don't make a product 'good' of course, but given that both campaigns were for physical print runs of existing games, and not for future products, they are a great barometer for how much people like the games.

 

[SableWyvern]

For context, the Kickstarter for Brindlewood Bay and the BK for The Between (which uses the same mechanic) made three quarters of a million dollars. So obviously those games work marvelously well for quite a few folks. KS dollars don't make a product 'good' of course, but given that both campaigns were for physical print runs of existing games, and not for future products, they are a great barometer for how much people like the games.

Why would I push back? Because I think you are entirely incorrect. I know you think the issue is obvious, but given that there are many, many, fans of BBay who think the mechanics work marvelously as a mystery game, and who experience wonderful fulfilling games with it, I don't feel the need to explicate in any depth the enormous difference between your opinion and any kind of demonstratable fact (which are devilishly hard to come by when you're discussing how well a given RPG 'works'). We aren't talking about fact here, but rather opinion and experience, and thus there isn't really any real room for anyone, you included, to kvetch about 'push back'. You don't have any facts to push back against, just your opinion, which I cordially disagree with.

From what I can tell, @RenleyRenfield is a big fan of the game. I also find it quite fascinating, even though I don't think it's for me.

I'm not sure why you're trying to convince people the game is popular, well-liked and enjoyed immensely by it's fans; no one seems to be disputing that. No one is saying the mechanics don't work or that people aren't fulfilled. No one is attacking the game.

Some of us are simply saying it doesn't operate the way a conventional "solve the mystery" game does, where there are clear facts established ahead of time and that a clear understanding of those facts leads to a single correct truth.

I see a lot of big fans of the game who have an opinion similar to Renley's. I've seen it described as creating a jigsaw, rather than finding one and assembling it -- by someone who, as best I can tell, plays and enjoys the game.

Brindlewood is an interesting case because the players are essentially carving their own pieces as they go along, and instead of a GM telling them if it's right or wrong, it's a ... die roll.

 

[Umbran]

Sure. I was referring to spending a limited resource. Fancy may not be the best word. It's quite different to traditional methods and (as I've seen it described) it feels very gamey to me.

So, having run a several-year-long campaign of Ashen Stars, which runs on Gumshoe...

The mechanics for getting clues are too simple in practice to be particularly "gamey". There's no luck involved, no modifiers for improving your chances - either you have the skill, or you don't. You spend the point, or you don't. That's all.

 

[Fenris-77]

From what I can tell, @RenleyRenfield is a big fan of the game. I also find it quite fascinating, even though I don't think it's for me.

I'm not sure why you're trying to convince people the game is popular, well-liked and enjoyed immensely by it's fans; no one seems to be disputing that. No one is saying the mechanics don't work or that people aren't fulfilled. No one is attacking the game.

Some of us are simply saying it doesn't operate the way a conventional "solve the mystery" game does, where there are clear facts established ahead of time and that a clear understanding of those facts leads to a single correct truth.

I see a lot of big fans of the game who have an opinion similar to Renley's. I've seen it described as creating a jigsaw, rather than finding one and assembling it -- by someone who, as best I can tell, plays and enjoys the game.

It's not about convincing. Everyone can manage that for themselves, for sure. I was just pointing out that the game is quite popular as a low-conflict response to the needlessly negative monikers it was saddled with upstream. I don't think the analysis about the mechanic in those posts was accurate or useful. My opinion, his opinion, it's all good. No posters were harmed in the making of this discussion.

 

[SableWyvern]

So, having run a several-year-long campaign of Ashen Stars, which runs on Gumshoe...

The mechanics for getting clues are too simple in practice to be particularly "gamey". There's no luck involved, no modifiers for improving your chances - either you have the skill, or you don't. You spend the point, or you don't. That's all.

I'm not a fan of the limited resource part. It feels gamey to me. Others are absolutely entitled to feel differently.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm not a fan of the limited resource part. It feels gamey to me. Others are absolutely entitled to feel differently.

Finding clues by having the skill in the right place isn't a limited resource though. You don't need a point spend to do that bit. The point spend bits of Gumshoe aren't entirely to my taste either, although I do dearly love Swords of the Serpentine.