Why do you play games other than D&D?

[pemerton]

Is any of this actually in dispute? I'm sure it is somewhere, but not in this thread, from anything I've seen.

I said that some investigation games involve the players actually solving "a mystery" and I also mentioned "solving puzzles".

At no point did I say anything remotely like, "Call of Cthulhu is an accurate, high fidelity simulation of a real life police investigation." I'm pretty sure no one else in the thread said it either. I don't think anyone hereis under the illusion that RPGs are just like real life murder investigations.

Sure, but then I can assert that Brindlewood Bay players also solve a mystery - namely, of how to integrate the clues and observations and etc they have acquired, via their play of the game, into a coherent and plausible account of what happened. That's a demanding cognitive task, which even if it doesn't have one unique solution has many possible dead ends on the way to any particular candidate solution.

And it's a cognitive task that, as I've posted upthread, has some resemblance to the cognitive task involved in actually trying to solve a mystery in real life.

I agree it's not that much like solving a puzzle, because of the absence of (i) a unique solution being known to exist, and (ii) the clues being known to have been written to permit inference to (i). But the absence of (ii) actually makes it more like solving a mystery than solving a puzzle.

All of which is why I don't agree that CoC involves solving a mystery, as opposed to playing at solving a mystery, to a degree that Brindlewood Bay does not. But I do agree that a CoC module is more likely to involve solving a puzzle to a degree that Brindlewood Bay will not.

 

[SableWyvern]

Sure, but then I can assert that Brindlewood Bay players also solve a mystery - namely, of how to integrate the clues and observations and etc they have acquired, via their play of the game, into a coherent and plausible account of what happened. That's a demanding cognitive task, which even if it doesn't have one unique solution has many possible dead ends on the way to any particular candidate solution.

And it's a cognitive task that, as I've posted upthread, has some resemblance to the cognitive task involved in actually trying to solve a mystery in real life.

I agree it's not that much like solving a puzzle, because of the absence of (i) a unique solution being known to exist, and (ii) the clues being known to have been written to permit inference to (i). But the absence of (ii) actually makes it more like solving a mystery than solving a puzzle.

All of which is why I don't agree that CoC involves solving a mystery, as opposed to playing at solving a mystery, to a degree that Brindlewood Bay does not. But I do agree that a CoC module is more likely to involve solving a puzzle to a degree that Brindlewood Bay will not.

I don't know if you missed it, but I did early retract my "telling the story of solving a mystery" phrasing.

I believe:

In Brindlewood Bay, the players are not solving a mystery, but are playing characters who do

is a more accurate expression of the distinction I was trying to make.

I'm not seeing much of a difference between puzzles and mysteries in this context, but if replacing the world mystery with puzzle enables you to understand the main thrust of my point, then so be it. I do also agree with @hawkeyefan that we're talking more about how things feel to players than anything else, but it seems quite clear to me from reading a lot of feedback from actual Brindlewood Bay fans that many people who love the game feel similarly to me on this.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't know if you missed it, but I did early retract my "telling the story of solving a mystery" phrasing.

I believe:

In Brindlewood Bay, the players are not solving a mystery, but are playing characters who do

is a more accurate expression of the distinction I was trying to make.

I'm not seeing much of a difference between puzzles and mysteries in this context, but if replacing the world mystery with puzzle enables you to understand the main thrust of my point, then so be it. I do also agree with @hawkeyefan that we're talking more about how things feel to players than anything else, but it seems quite clear to me from reading a lot of feedback from actual Brindlewood Bay fans that many people who love the game feel similarly to me on this.

For me, I just object to the elevation of one gaming approach as being “closer” to the real thing. It’s just silly.

In both cases, people are pretending to be investigators solving a mystery. In neither case is a mystery actually being solved.

Perhaps that implication is not intended… but comments like “one is about solving a mystery and the other is about telling a story of solving a mystery” certainly seem like it is.

The “my pretend is more authentic than your pretend” vibe is what I disagree with.

 

[Micah Sweet]

For me, I just object to the elevation of one gaming approach as being “closer” to the real thing. It’s just silly.

In both cases, people are pretending to be investigators solving a mystery. In neither case is a mystery actually being solved.

Perhaps that implication is not intended… but comments like “one is about solving a mystery and the other is about telling a story of solving a mystery” certainly seem like it is.

The “my pretend is more authentic than your pretend” vibe is what I disagree with.

Well, one of them shares something with a real life mystery that the other doesn't. In real life, there is an answer to the mystery that is not contingent on anything the investigators do or don't do. They may not find the answer, but it exists nonetheless. In a traditional game like CoC, that independent answer exists as well, unconnected to the player's actions or die rolls. In this case the GM stands in for reality, but in both cases an actual, independent answer exists.

From what I'm reading here, in Brindlewood Bay the answer doesn't exist until it is determined by a synthesis of player action and setting details. Not discovered, determined. There's nothing wrong with preferring either approach, but I can tell you which feels more like solving a mystery to me personally.