Why does any Ring have a caster level lower than 12?

[Infiniti2000]

How can you possibly think that the owner of the Forge Ring feat is not the "creator" of the ring?

Because the rules on satisfying the prerequisites do not specify that the 'creator' needs to be the person with Forge Ring. Therefore, any of the people brought in to satisfy a prerequisite (in the general case) could be designated creator.

SRD: "It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."

 

[JimAde]

Ok, I see from this quote where Patryn is getting his position. That is pretty much what the rule says. But IMC, in my example above, the fireballs would do 5d6 and the GP and XP costs would be based on a CL of 5. Otherwise, you could have 1st level wizards collaborating with 9th level clerics and producing Magic Missile wands that produce 5 missiles at a time. Since MM isn't even on the cleric's spell list, I just don't buy it.

Note that I don't think it's broken for game balance purposes or anything (it is the 9th level character paying the XP, after all) it just seems wrong.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That is pretty much what the rule says. But IMC, in my example above, the fireballs would do 5d6 and the GP and XP costs would be based on a CL of 5.

Of course you can do that, so long as you realize that it's a house rule and inform your players!

Otherwise, you could have 1st level wizards collaborating with 9th level clerics and producing Magic Missile wands that produce 5 missiles at a time. Since MM isn't even on the cleric's spell list, I just don't buy it.

Well, yeah, of course you can do that. On the other hand, what's far more likely to happen is that the 1st-level wizard will end up helping his 9th-level cleric friend scribe scrolls.

 

[JimAde]

Well, yeah, of course you can do that. On the other hand, what's far more likely to happen is that the 1st-level wizard will end up helping his 9th-level cleric friend scribe scrolls.

"This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship..."

 

[Infiniti2000]

Otherwise, you could have 1st level wizards collaborating with 9th level clerics and producing Magic Missile wands that produce 5 missiles at a time. Since MM isn't even on the cleric's spell list, I just don't buy it.

Well, yeah, of course you can do that. On the other hand, what's far more likely to happen is that the 1st-level wizard will end up helping his 9th-level cleric friend scribe scrolls.

You'll note that this is where Patryn and I differ, as explained further in another thread.

 

[dcollins]

Now a caster can voluntarily lower his caster level, but why would he in this case? The cost doesn't increase with caster level when it comes to rings.

Or does it? This is precisely why I think the revision of "caster level is not a requirement" is nonsensical. Some designers (Monte Cook and Sean Reynolds) have said that sometimes you should in fact modify price for caster level, but it's not in the DMG as such and no one agrees on exactly when or how much those modifications need to be.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Or does it? This is precisely why I think the revision of "caster level is not a requirement" is nonsensical. Some designers (Monte Cook and Sean Reynolds) have said that sometimes you should in fact modify price for caster level, but it's not in the DMG as such and no one agrees on exactly when or how much those modifications need to be.

Much the same way that any modifications for caster level aren't included in the XP costs for permanency... Personally I see the idea that some magic items may be 'weaker' as far less of a problem than the concept that it requires a 17th level mage to create a 1st level pearl of power...

 

[dcollins]

Much the same way that any modifications for caster level aren't included in the XP costs for permanency...

But that's my point. The pro-errata designers say you do need to modify price for caster level... but they never gave any firm rules for exactly when or how much.

And once again, the proper solution to pearls of power is just errata their caster level (as done in RPGA's Living Greyhawk), not trash the whole magic item creation system.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But that's my point. The pro-errata designers say you do need to modify price for caster level... but they never gave any firm rules for exactly when or how much.

Yes, they do: Spell Level * Caster Level * Constant

And, for other items, it really doesn't matter; Gauntlets of Strength +2 (CL3) are not meaningfully more powerful than Gauntlets of Strength +2 (CL6).

 

[Artoomis]

No, it's paid by "the creator." The creator sets the CL of the ring, among other things. Those cooperating to create the ring may decide among themselves who will be the creator...

This is based off of an incorrect reading of the rules.

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

It's pretty clear the creator MUST have the feat - if a cooperative effort, they can decide who is the creator, but that does NOT void out the need for the creator to have the feat.

Furthermore the caster level can NEVER be lower than that level needed to cast any spells required in the creation.

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.