Why does any Ring have a caster level lower than 12?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And, as I've shown, the feat can ONLY be used by the creator.

No, you haven't.

"You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet," is a true statement, even if "You can also help someone else create wondrous items" is a true statement.

Nor has a rule been published with sufficient clarity to overule the general rule that feats can only be used by the character who took the feat (duh!).

c.f. "Prerequisites"

 

[Artoomis]

No, you haven't.

"You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet," is a true statement, even if "You can also help someone else create wondrous items" is a true statement.



c.f. "Prerequisites"

Nothing in "Prerequities" specifcally overides the rule that you can only create items if you have the appropriate item creation feat.

The actual rule for creating items states:

"To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). "

In this view (the actual rule for creating items) it's pretty claar that the feat for creating the item is not just one of the "prerequisite" that can be met by just anyone involved in the creation. You have to take all the rules together.

Nothing indicates that the descirpton of prerequisites would override the rule for creating items.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Most of the time."

 

[Artoomis]

"Most of the time."

Right. If the feats were only a prerequisite, then,

"Most of the time, they take the form of spells ..."

would have to read:

"Always take the form of a feat plus, most of the time the form of spells..."

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Except feats are a prerequisite. Keep reading.

Heck, I'll post it here, again:

• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Feats are included in the list of prerequisites. Ergo, feats are prerequisites. Do you not agree with this?

 

[Artoomis]

Except feats are a prerequisite....Feats are included in the list of prerequisites. Ergo, feats are prerequisites. Do you not agree with this?

Sort of. The specific rules for creating magic items make it clear that feats are not part of the prerequisites that others can meet for the creator.

The rules for creating magic items limit the prerequisites that others can help with to at least not include the basic feat required.

It's pretty hard to read those rules any other way, unless you read ONLY the prerequisite definition by itself.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sort of. The specific rules for creating magic items make it clear that feats are not part of the prerequisites that others can meet for the creator.

Except, of course, that they do no such thing. Feats are prerequisites. Anyone providing a prerequisite is participating. Those who are participating must decide among themselves who is to act as the creator - not, "must decide among those who are participating and are able to meet the item creation feat prerequisite who shall be the creator for ..."

The rules for creating magic items limit the prerequisites that others can help with to at least not include the basic feat required.

Again, they do no such thing.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

 

[Artoomis]

Except, of course, that they do no such thing. Feats are prerequisites. Anyone providing a prerequisite is participating. Those who are participating must decide among themselves who is to act as the creator - not, "must decide among those who are participating and are able to meet the item creation feat prerequisite who shall be the creator for ..."



Again, they do no such thing.

Oh, well, I give up, then. I think it is very clear that no one gets to "borrow" a feat from some one else to create an item. The whole notion of that is just, well, "balmy" is a word that comes to mind.

Further, why should they be able to do that and yet not be able to do that for a non-spell caster who helps make an item (provides a prerequisite)? The prerequisite definition certainly does not prohibit it. Nothing actually states that only a spell caster can set the caster level. In fact, nothing actually says you cannot set a caster level higher than your own level, does it?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Nothing actually states that only a spell caster can set the caster level. In fact, nothing actually says you cannot set a caster level higher than your own level, does it?

This says it: "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." However, what I want to know is why Patryn thinks that this rule uses 'creator' specifically as the one designated as creator (and not just someone providing a prerequisite) and yet all the individual magical item rules (re: specific vs. generic in the other thread) do not.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Oh, well, I give up, then. I think it is very clear that no one gets to "borrow" a feat from some one else to create an item. The whole notion of that is just, well, "balmy" is a word that comes to mind.

I think you mean "barmy." Otherwise, you're saying that I'm comfortably warm and breezy.

Nothing actually states that only a spell caster can set the caster level. In fact, nothing actually says you cannot set a caster level higher than your own level, does it?

Actually, yes, they do. Characters without a caster level is just another example of the D&D difference between "0" and "N / A." A nonspellcaster doesn't have a CL of 0; they do not have a CL at all. Accordingly, they are completely incapable of setting an item's caster level. And, since all items have a minimum CL, the nonspellcaster fails the test because he isn't even allowed into the testing hall.

As for setting it higher than your own:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level.

For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

EDIT:

To respond to the infinite one, because there's no such thing as "the specific" vs. "the generic" in this case.