Why does any Ring have a caster level lower than 12?

[dcollins]

If you glance through the dmg, you'll note many rings have caster levels below 12. However, rings require caster level 12 just to make.

Now a caster can voluntarily lower his caster level, but why would he in this case? The cost doesn't increase with caster level when it comes to rings.

I guess I should respond to the original question directly. (Typo in the original post threw me a bit.)

This is precisely one of those aspects of the magic item system that, as you observantly point out, doesn't make any sense under the "caster level is alterable and not a requirement" errata. I agree that it doesn't make sense for these rings to have low caster levels, or to allegedly be "average caster level" -- assuming in fact that "a caster can voluntarily lower his caster level" for rings.

But, this problem does not appear under the original simpler rule as published in the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG, namely that for rings, you cannot lower the caster level. The published rule was, "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level... For other magic items the caster level is determined by the item itself." That is, there's some natural power level intrinsic to each type of magic ring, it's fixed and unalterable, and it's independent of the level of the creators (although it is a "minimum on the creator's level"). Much simpler.

I totally agree with you -- if "a caster can voluntarily lower his caster level" for rings (as implied by errata), and there's no price difference for doing so (since there's no such rule in the DMG), then the caster levels for all those magic rings don't make any sense.

 

[Artoomis]

... The published rule was, "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level... For other magic items the caster level is determined by the item itself." That is, there's some natural power level intrinsic to each type of magic ring, it's fixed and unalterable, and it's independent of the level of the creators (although it is a "minimum on the creator's level"). Much simpler.

I totally agree with you -- if "a caster can voluntarily lower his caster level" for rings (as implied by errata), and there's no price difference for doing so (since there's no such rule in the DMG), the the caster levels for all those magic rings don't make any sense.

While I agree with you that the published rule was NOT confusing in any way and easy to implement, the unneccesary errata changed that rule.

Still, the errata most definately DID change that rule, and that's just the way it is...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This is based off of an incorrect reading of the rules.

Oy, there's three of you now, eh?

My reading of this particular rule is completely correct. Read the text you quoted:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.

in addition to:

• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

Putting it all together:

1. There are prerequisites required to create an item.
2. Those who provide one or more prereqs are considered to be cooperating to create a magic item.
3. The creator must be chosen from among those cooperating (who are called participants).
4. A particular item creation feat is usually a prereq, so the character providing the item creation feat is a participant in the creation of magic items.
5. A particular spell is usually a prereq, so the character providing the spell is a participant in the creation of magic items.
6. Therefore, a character providing a feat prerequisite and not a spell prerequisite may be designated the creator.
7. Therefore, a character providing a spell prerequisite and not a feat prerequisite may be designated the creator.

It's pretty clear the creator MUST have the feat - if a cooperative effort, they can decide who is the creator, but that does NOT void out the need for the creator to have the feat.

Rather, it's pretty clear that the creator must be someone participating in the creation of the item. Providing the feat prereq is one way of participating in the creation of the item. Providing a spell prerequisite is another way of participating in the creation of the item.

 

[Artoomis]

...Putting it all together:

1. There are prerequisites required to create an item.
2. Those participating in the creation of magic items (which, generally, is read as "providing one or more prereqs") may pick the creator from among them
3. A particular item creation feat is usually a prereq, so the character providing the item creation feat is participating in the creation of magic items
4. A particular spell is usually a prereq, so the character providing the spell is participating in the creation of magic items
5. Therefore, a character providing a feat prerequisite and not a spell prerequisite may be designated the creator
6. Therefore, a character providing a spell prerequisite and not a feat prerequisite may be designated the creator



Rather, it's pretty clear that the creator must be someone participating in the creation of the item. Providing the feat prereq is one way of participating in the creation of the item. Providing a spell prerequisite is another way of participating in the creation of the item.

While I prefer this reading as it allows one to even (potentially) get a non-spell caster to pay the experience for items created for them, it ignores:

"To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation."

It seems pretty clear to me that the creator MUST have the feat - and, if cooperating, may choose amongst themselves who is the "creator" provided the "creator" also has the feat.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

While I prefer this reading as it allows one to even (potentially) get a non-spell caster to pay the experience for items created for them, it ignores:

Actually, it doesn't. The creator, among other things, sets the CL of the item. A Fighter 5 has no CL, and therefore cannot be the creator of a magic item.

"To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation."

Yeah - and the person who is designated as the creator does invest his time, his money (though someone could pay him, of course), and his XP in the creation of the item. He even uses the item creation feat - either his own, or "borrowed" from an assisting caster. Now, if it said, "To create magic items, spellcasters must have special feats," you might be on to something ... but even then I'd probably disagree with you, following the logic above.

It seems pretty clear to me that the creator MUST have the feat - and, if cooperating, may choose amongst themselves who is the "creator" provided the "creator" also has the feat.

Which seems to be a silly thing to leave out of the "Choosing a Creator" section of the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, it doesn't. The creator, among other things, sets the CL of the item. A Fighter 5 has no CL, and therefore cannot be the creator of a magic item.

But, "It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."

According to that, a non-spell caster could be providing one or more prerequisites and therefore could be designated as the "creator." Rubbish, of course, but that's the way it reads.

The creator must have the feat - you cannot "use" someone else's feat. That's rubbish, too.

Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.

Benefit
You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.

Note than ONLY "prerequisites you meet" has a very specific rule allowing you to meet them by using someone else's spells or an item. The other uses of the word "you" do not have a rule that spefically overides the use of the term "you" in the feat. It's not "you or someone who cooperates with you."

The rules you quote unfortunately left out the fact that when choosing the creator, you must restrict your choice to one who has the appropriate feat - but it's so obvious it did not need to be stated there.

 

[Artoomis]

...Which seems to be a silly thing to leave out of the "Choosing a Creator" section of the rules.

Some things are so obvious they do not need to be re-stated.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

According to that, a non-spell caster could be providing one or more prerequisites and therefore could be designated as the "creator." Rubbish, of course, but that's the way it reads.

They can be a participant, yes, and you could try to choose them to be the creator, yes, but what happens is that the item doesn't get made because it needs a CL.

Nonspellcasters do not have a CL - not even of 0. Therefore, they cannot set an item's CL. Therefore, they cannot be a creator.

Anything else is discussion of prerequisites - and as I've shown, the needed item creation feat is nothing more than another prerequisite.

 

[Artoomis]

And, as I've shown, the feat can ONLY be used by the creator. Indeed, that's true of all feats, I think, unless specifically called out otherwsie in the feat, which has not been done here.

Nor has a rule been published with sufficient clarity to overule the general rule that feats can only be used by the character who took the feat (duh!).

 

[Artoomis]

They can be a participant, yes, and you could try to choose them to be the creator, yes, but what happens is that the item doesn't get made because it needs a CL.

Nonspellcasters do not have a CL - not even of 0. Therefore, they cannot set an item's CL. Therefore, they cannot be a creator.

Anything else is discussion of prerequisites - and as I've shown, the needed item creation feat is nothing more than another prerequisite.

Non-feat holders cannot use the feat, therefore only the person with the feat can be the creator.