Why does Grim Tales have the most customized CharGen?

[Denaes]

I saw a claim to this on a thread. I looked through reviews.

It's based on d20 Moderns Attribute Scores, which sounds good. But in the reviews I saw, I didn't see anyone really explaining why chargen was so flexible beyond d20 Modern.

d20 Modern was a flop in our games. People loved the classes, thought that most the talants and talant trees were pretty lame and would have been better off as Feats and then hated the way the Feats left you crippled. There were a lot of really limiting chains/trees which "allowed" you to do things - something my group doesn't handle well. We hated AoO's and the AoO rules with gunplay really left us wanting more. We had to remake our characters multiple times. We wanted characters who were capable... first 1st level characters... then 3rd level characters.. and we still wern't very capable against NPCs.

After Spycraft 2.0 the feat selections from d20 Modern & D&D look absolutely clownshoes. I'm thinking that most likely incorporating the 6 Attribute Classes into a spycraft engine

 

[solomoncane]

GT puts all feats and talents into 20-level Attribute classes. Advanced and prestige classes are not necessary. IMO this provides a lot of streamlining while maintianing versatility. To add PrC or new feat elements, simply assign the class abilities/feats to talent trees/feat chains in the proper attributes.

Also, bear in mind that some of the talents, feats, & skills don't quite work like Modern or 3.x. You have to read them carefully.

 

[Denaes]

What? Feats are assigned 20 level progressions? How does that work?

Did they add more talants or just make it so you had to wait even longer to get one that was interesting?

 

[Henry]

What? Feats are assigned 20 level progressions? How does that work?

Solomoncane may not have been clear: Grim Tales just takes the core classes from modern (strong, fast, etc.) and stretches them to 20 levels, doing away with advanced and prestige classes. THEN, it takes ALL of the talents and feats from modern, adds in MANY special abilities from Spycraft 1.0 and D&D, adds a few new ones to GT, and gives the WHOLE thing to the players to mess with. That's simplifying it, but that's the gist.

I'm guessing if Spycraft 2.0 is as good as people are saying it is, then Grim Tales 2.0 will likely include some of it. It's like taking the best of each, and putting it together.

 

[Denaes]

So the Talants and the Feats are all together in a pool of Abilities that people can choose?

Are they still really crippled by a bunch of Pre-requisites?

One thing I recall from d20 Modern was the AbilityScore Prereqs on feats. Sure you could switch to other classes to make up for your problems, but if you didn't have a good wisdom you couldn't take the gun feats (most of which had pretty lame pre-reqs).

I like True20 and how it handles pre-reqs... which is that few Feats have them unless it makes actual sense to do so.

Unfortunately Spycraft 2.0 has a bunch of pre-reqs... so no matter the campagin qualities chosesn (like wire-fu) you won't get that action hero until like level 10+ so they have all the pre-reqs needed to get the feats to let them do cinematic things well. One player is frustrated that his 3rd level chinese detective who uses two weapons can't take the feat for it yet.

 

[Henry]

So the Talants and the Feats are all together in a pool of Abilities that people can choose?

And now I didn't speak clearly.

There are Talents and Feats, same as in Modern, but feats from each source stay feats; talents are made up of special abilities from classes, as well as the talent trees. For instance "A gun in the other" from Spycraft is a feat; "Divine Grace" (from the paladin's aura) or "Sneak Attack" (the rogue ability) are both Talents.

Are they still really crippled by a bunch of Pre-requisites?

I don't think of it as "crippled", I think of it as "level-balenced." There are still prereqs on talents AND feats.

One thing I recall from d20 Modern was the AbilityScore Prereqs on feats. Sure you could switch to other classes to make up for your problems, but if you didn't have a good wisdom you couldn't take the gun feats (most of which had pretty lame pre-reqs).

No book in front of me, but I believe some REQ's were relaxed. I don't recall the one you mention, I'll have to see.

Unfortunately Spycraft 2.0 has a bunch of pre-reqs... so no matter the campagin qualities chosesn (like wire-fu) you won't get that action hero until like level 10+... One player is frustrated that his 3rd level chinese detective who uses two weapons can't take the feat for it yet.

Same thing here; but in Spycraft and GT, keep in mind that it's built for all levels of play form 1 to 20. Because the power progression is more level, you can more easily play and handle a group of 9th levels or 15th levels, than just sticking with a group of 3rd levels. While you might (as I do) find low level play more familiar, in GT and Spycraft it's not meant to stay there long, and is more streamlined. I would try two things (with Spycraft):

1) Level them slightly faster and see if this helps.
2) Alternately, remove the restrictions and see if it's balanced for your group or not. You may find very quickly the reasons for certain prerequsites, as the game designers likely didn't arbitrarily assign them, but had good playtest reasons for putting them on a feat or talent.

Hope this helps!

 

[Denaes]

Thank you for the clarification

So are they doing a 2.0 or was that just speculation and/or "sometime in the future" talk?

The main basis we have for our Feats and pre-reqs are with True20. It was amazingly liberating to just choose your feats, which didn't upset our game in the least. I'll probobly go through and work.

Really how does a "+3 BAB" restriction help balance the game for limiting the 2 weapon combat feat? How does requiring a Soldier to be level 3 or a Detective level 5 balance things out? The stronger combatant gets even stronger than the weaker combatant faster?

The fact that you have to spend a Feat on gaining the feat is the balancing factor. If someone wants to be level one and have crappy bonuses to strike with two weapons, then why not? Is it inherently more balanced that they're better able to strike with their two attacks?

Shot on the run requires Point Blank Shot & Dodge for some reason. No logic. Just trying to make you wait to get your abilities in the name of balance. Because shooting while you run (effectively moving before and after your shot) is unbalancing normally, but only balanced when you take these other Feats that don't relate to it?

I understand the Dex of 13 tagged onto it as it requires dexterity (rather than just assuming if you chose the feat, you had the needed dexterity), but when you have 13 for ability score pre-reqs, that means that you can't customize your character fully. Every ability score below 13 is another area that you just can't gain feats for.

Because this makes a character with all 10's and a character with all 15's more balanced? One character can only take beginning feats and nothing very advanced. And for a game which totes that you can jump around between classes to strengthen your character and round them out, that leaves gaps you can't even out.

Pre-requisites seem important until you play without many. Then things still work out fine, only characters are more dynamic and themed because they got to be who they wanted to be, rather than take a hodgepodge of feats to hopefully attain what they want to be in the future. What is unbalanced at level 1 will be just as unbalanced at level 10. I'd rather just let players play and be happy.

 

[Corinthi]

Seems like you're having a /lot/ of trouble with balancing mechanics. You know, there are a lot of games on the market beyond D20, many of which are well suited for cinematic gaming with the limits off.

Cinematic Unisystem (As seen in the Buffy, Angel, and Army of Darkness Roleplaying games)
Feng Shui (Designed for action movie roleplaying)
Over the Edge (It's /hard/ for Chargen to be more streamlined and Open Ended)

I know this is a D20 board, but if Spycraft is too confining in it's BadAssitude, then perhaps you would be well served in expanding you options.

 

[Denaes]

Seems like you're having a /lot/ of trouble with balancing mechanics. You know, there are a lot of games on the market beyond D20, many of which are well suited for cinematic gaming with the limits off.

Cinematic Unisystem (As seen in the Buffy, Angel, and Army of Darkness Roleplaying games)
Feng Shui (Designed for action movie roleplaying)
Over the Edge (It's /hard/ for Chargen to be more streamlined and Open Ended)

I know this is a D20 board, but if Spycraft is too confining in it's BadAssitude, then perhaps you would be well served in expanding you options.

I'm playing Feng Shui for the first time tonite, so that might be cool.

Own Buffy, Angel & soon Army of Darkness. Can't stand the fact that opponents arn't supposed to roll, made the players very bored. Every time I've seen it successfully played the GM (including me) still rolled attacks for opponents. Otherwise the only thing that's really annoying is the huge lack of Abilities for Unisystem characters. Just gets kinda annoying when you want to be a "combat dude" and you're taking the same abilities. I sat there one night trying to create a character without those abilities and it was pretty hard. So many points, so few choices

Never played Over the Edge though.

The group I play in wants a strongly defined sense of character (True20 was seen as being too loose in character gen with the way they arranged skills & classes) like d20 Modern, but really flexible customization/advancement. Also they enjoy a strong ruleset during play with options.

I think I'll get there by filtering through Feats with True20 in hand as a guide and strip away pre-reqs

 

[nharwell]

I'm playing Feng Shui for the first time tonite, so that might be cool.

Own Buffy, Angel & soon Army of Darkness. Can't stand the fact that opponents arn't supposed to roll, made the players very bored. Every time I've seen it successfully played the GM (including me) still rolled attacks for opponents. Otherwise the only thing that's really annoying is the huge lack of Abilities for Unisystem characters. Just gets kinda annoying when you want to be a "combat dude" and you're taking the same abilities. I sat there one night trying to create a character without those abilities and it was pretty hard. So many points, so few choices

Never played Over the Edge though.

The group I play in wants a strongly defined sense of character (True20 was seen as being too loose in character gen with the way they arranged skills & classes) like d20 Modern, but really flexible customization/advancement. Also they enjoy a strong ruleset during play with options.

I think I'll get there by filtering through Feats with True20 in hand as a guide and strip away pre-reqs

You might consider adapting something like the feat mastery trees in Iron Heroes to True20 -- that would keep alot of the "crunch" your players seem to want while taking advantage of a more flexible character creation system.

<edit> - read the thread more carefully and saw that you don't like level prereqs for feats, which is the point of Feat Mastery.