Why does nobody complain about the monk?

[Starbuck_II]

Last night I was actually thinking... with the elimination of the concentration skill (which most monks never had a use for anyway), just how much does Con really affect things for a monk? Might be interesting to replace that and have a Str, Dex, Wis class.

HP: For every HD you gain as a monk, you can use wisdom instead of Con for bonus hp.
Fort saves: Not sure this needs a replacement, monks already get the good base save.
Death and Dying: Problematic, since in PF you die at -Con Score and the stabilization roll is con-based. Not sure the best way to replace this, probably just use wisdom or something.

Instead of con use Wisdom? Great idea actually.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sure, why not? Death and dying rules use wisdom, and perhaps to make up for the fort saves, give monks something like the Battle Fortitude the Scout class had in 3E.

I like the idea of a frail looking monk who's toughened himself through meditation and inner ki. I also am totally in favor of dethroning Dwarf as the best core monk race, a fact I find displeasing.

 

[Votan]

Sure, why not? Death and dying rules use wisdom, and perhaps to make up for the fort saves, give monks something like the Battle Fortitude the Scout class had in 3E.

I like the idea of a frail looking monk who's toughened himself through meditation and inner ki. I also am totally in favor of dethroning Dwarf as the best core monk race, a fact I find displeasing.

One does have to worry about removing all mechanical features from a stat or it will be dumped (very, very low). Battle fortitude plus a good fort save and WIS for death/dying plus hit points would make the cost of 6 CON very, very low.

 

[Voadam]

And sanely priced, hopefully.

After seeing that you can get magic fang and greater magic fang permanent via a 5th level spell for a few thousand gold the mighty fists price increase seems a little more explicable.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...just how much does Con really affect things for a monk? Might be interesting to replace that and have a Str, Dex, Wis class.

Actually, that's pretty much the only stats I mess with for my Monk builds, though, counter to most people, I make mine Dex/Wis/Str.

Con, though, is the 4th highest stat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

One does have to worry about removing all mechanical features from a stat or it will be dumped (very, very low). Battle fortitude plus a good fort save and WIS for death/dying plus hit points would make the cost of 6 CON very, very low.

And ever since the PF changes to Paladin, I've yet to see a Paladin with higher than 8 Wisdom. So what? It's still no where near as abusive as the Str, Wis, Cha 7 wizards I see all the time (natural 18 Int, everything else to Con and Dex) in pathfinder. And the only way to have a 6 Con in PF with point buy is to be an elf. And elf is a pretty godawful choice for monk, possibly one of the worst core races for it, in fact. If you're not using point buy...rolls can turn out lots of ways anyway. In either case, I'd still dump charisma with higher priority than Con even with all of those changes as a Monk, so I don't see how this would ever truly escalate into a "problem."

 

[Otakkun]

Str, Wis, Cha 7 wizards I see all the time...

Now why am I not surprised? Shame you can't do the same with the sorcerer, who besides STILL being punished with one less caster level than the wizard for some occult reason I've never really understood, can't really afford a Int 7 unless you're planning to have a character with almost cero skills.

Level 6 for 3rd level spells ... big pet peeve of mine.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Per RAW, I think the favored class skill point comes after int penalty, I'm pretty sure you're MEANT to get a benefit out of it, no matter what. Whether human's bonus point qualifies or not is probably more up for debate, but you could theoretically be an int 7 sorc and have decent skill points...

Course. with the release of the APG, any sorc is an idiot (even below int 7) to pass up the human variant favored class bonus for extra spells known, at least once you can get 1st level and higher ones. But, that's a whole other issue...

 

[Newt]

Even giving monk wisdom to hit instead of strength for FREE (ie, not as a bonus feat option) won't do jack to solve their MAD. They still need strength for damage and combat maneuvers. At least...considering the whole martial arts "angle" and all the bonus feat options they have related to the maneuvers, I thought they were supposed to be good at them. Maybe I'm crazy.

...

I wouldn't mind seeing strength become unimportant for a Monk, both to stand out from every other high str melee brute and to better fit the "mystical" superhuman wuxia image. To do that, you need to make str irrelevant on attack, damage, and combat maneuver checks, at a bare minimum. And it should NOT cost feats. I believe I posted my basic idea for shifting these to wisdom-based rolls earlier in this thread...

I remember a feat from a non-core WotC book somewhere giving you Wis to attack instead of Str, can never remember the name of it when I'm in "build a Monk" mood though, which I currently am. Or it could have been Wis instead of Con.. Probably in one of the pisonic books, they got more love than Monks ever did.

I do like the idea of needing Dex, Wis, Str, Con though. More for the theme than mechanically, theme wise it's brilliant. The elite of the elite, above mere mortals. Mechanically it's a b***h. Could leave them for a high powered game where people start with better than normal stats? Or one of those "roll 4d6 6 times, take out the lowest number for each", generally gives at least one 18 and no low scores, even better when you can move points around at a 1:1 ratio. 18 Wis, 18 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 10 Cha? 10 Int if Human, and could completely drop Cha realistically.

My perfect Monk is gestalt with Fighter, Rogue, Assassin, possibly Hellbreaker levels anyway. And a class that gives Dimension Door more than once.. Still looking for that. Mental movie turns into thought experiment turns into quite a bit of reading.

About to get highly off topic, but the one character where MAD fits thematically is Monk. Save them for NPC's and high powered games. Or start reading non-core books and don't do an unarmed Monk. Especially after that no Improved Natural Attack rubbish.

 

[Newt]

For my own tastes, the best answer is to scrap "Monks" altogether. Unarmed combatants should not be able to compete with armed combatants. Not without bringing in definite (and probably obvious) supernatural forces. Same thing goes for armour.

Unarmed fighting was a core component of the training of a "knight", sure, but it was only there as a fallback, and/or as something to add in here and there (e.g., wrestling-style moves to unbalance a foe, etc.) See Improved Trip, et al.

Knights had plate gauntlets. Although Samurai had a style of Ju Jitsu according to people I've met who claim to know something. Whether it's true or not is another matter entirely.

But taking on an armored combatant is realistic. Strap an iron bar to your forearm, from elbow to below wrist on the outside of your arm (outside with hands down), and you can now deflect blades. Not hard to attach, two bits of string, material/ties/etc for a less constrictive feel. You don't stop force with greater force if you can avoid it, you deflect that force. From martial arts training varying from Tae Kwon Doe to Fencing, don't do that X-Men thing where Wolverine punches the dudes fist and breaks it, you bat it to the side. Although if you're an elite monk you'd probably punch it.

Some points unarmored has over armored is speed and agility, the speed to dodge a blow then get in and hit, and the agility for that whole dodging thing. Two things that can equalize in a fight quite nicely.

DnD Monks don't have to fight unarmored though, they simply lose most of their AC. And they can use weapons other than their body, even with Flurry of Blows.

Although you shouldn't lose AC (Dex at the very least) and Speed bonuses with an Armor Check Penalty of 0 or negatives. Can't get negatives I know, but if it would end up like that.) Think.. Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) with Shadowweave (... Tome of Magic? I think.. Has some shadow items anyway). That would give you no ACP, heavy armor proficiency (although Shadowweave is leather tops I think), 2d6 Sudden Strike, and you would get bonuses to hide in shadows. Mix with Monk of the Long Death and you have a really nice armored assassin.

But again, that's assuming that Monks can use Armor if it has no ACP. Still need to check that