Why Does spell Reasearch Have Such a High Cost?

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

D&D is about choices. By adding more spells to the Wizard’s spell list, expectably custom spells, you are giving them easier choices.

In my experience more choice of equal value makes for tougher choices, not easier ones.

Do I take fireball or Lighting Bolt?
I know I will make a spell that does one or the other, my pick, but balance it with some component that cost money and shorten the range to Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level). (Its balanced)

See, this is i think one of the underlying rubs.

The belief that the custom spell will be BETTER than the spells it is in competition with. While even saying "balancing it with" you obviously feel this spell is a superior spell to either fireball or lightning bolt which to me means "it thus isn't balanced."


if its balanced, it should be just as much a toss up as fireball, lightning bolt, haste, slow, fly, stinking cloud and the other spells are.

When you start from the premise that the custom spells are better, i understand fully the notion of limiting, heck even just disallowing, spell research entirely.

When you start with te premise that the spells will be balanced, and thus wont be better than or an "easy choice" when compared to normal spells, then the reasons seem to fade away.

Now if your "fireball or lightning bolt" spell were placed by me at 4th or even 5th level, would this be as easy a choice?

Do I take Levitate or Rope Trick?
I know I will make a spell that is like Rope Trick but allows me to move it at Levitate speed. Ill balance it by lowering the duration to minutes and lower the number of ppl that it can hold from 8 to 4. (Its balanced)

Its not balanced if it becomes the "easier" choice.

Just because you downgrade some effects in "exhcnage" for other does not mean the trade was balanced by default.

The very premise that "this custom spell is clearly the choice to make over these other two" implies imbalance.

With out the high cost and the time needed to research spells. The class gets a lot of advantages over another casting class.

Uhh... what makes you think this notion of research applies only to the wizard class and not to clerics, sorcerers and so forth?

You need deterrents so that the player has to actually think to him/her self “Do I really want to make this choice?”
It should NOT be a no brainier

isn't that what making sure the spells are balanced does?

A properly balanced third level spell should be just as likely to be chosen as the other third level spells. If you reach the point where, as you seem to indicate the above are, the custom spell is "an easy choice" then you have improperly balanced the spell.

Reducing the "space" in a rope trick for example from 8 people to "the size of my party" is not gonna net you much at all in my eyes.

Trading "hours" for "minutes" will get you some, but not enough to offset "moving it tactically" which transforms the spell significantly.

Again, a simple pair of notions...

If the custom spells are imbalanced, then there needs to be a high cost, because just like getting a magic item, you are powering up. However, if the spell is balanced, this issue does not exist.

A balanced spell is not one for whom "its an easy choice", by definition.

 

[melkoriii]

In my experience more choice of equal value makes for tougher choices, not easier ones.

See, this is i think one of the underlying rubs.

The belief that the custom spell will be BETTER than the spells it is in competition with. While even saying "balancing it with" you obviously feel this spell is a superior spell to either fireball or lightning bolt which to me means "it thus isn't balanced."


if its balanced, it should be just as much a toss up as fireball, lightning bolt, haste, slow, fly, stinking cloud and the other spells are.

When you start from the premise that the custom spells are better, i understand fully the notion of limiting, heck even just disallowing, spell research entirely.

When you start with te premise that the spells will be balanced, and thus wont be better than or an "easy choice" when compared to normal spells, then the reasons seem to fade away.

Now if your "fireball or lightning bolt" spell were placed by me at 4th or even 5th level, would this be as easy a choice?

Its not balanced if it becomes the "easier" choice.

Just because you downgrade some effects in "exhcnage" for other does not mean the trade was balanced by default.

The very premise that "this custom spell is clearly the choice to make over these other two" implies imbalance.

Uhh... what makes you think this notion of research applies only to the wizard class and not to clerics, sorcerers and so forth?


isn't that what making sure the spells are balanced does?

A properly balanced third level spell should be just as likely to be chosen as the other third level spells. If you reach the point where, as you seem to indicate the above are, the custom spell is "an easy choice" then you have improperly balanced the spell.

Reducing the "space" in a rope trick for example from 8 people to "the size of my party" is not gonna net you much at all in my eyes.

Trading "hours" for "minutes" will get you some, but not enough to offset "moving it tactically" which transforms the spell significantly.

Again, a simple pair of notions...

If the custom spells are imbalanced, then there needs to be a high cost, because just like getting a magic item, you are powering up. However, if the spell is balanced, this issue does not exist.

A balanced spell is not one for whom "its an easy choice", by definition. [/B]

That’s your perspective.

Mine is that if I can chose exactly want I want "even if its balances" its still better than picking from the given list and so need a cost.

Play the game your way. You obviously will as this debate has gone on for almost 3 pages.

 

[Merlion]

Mine is that if I can chose exactly want I want "even if its balances" its still better than picking from the given list and so need a cost.

.

Well my take on that would be...even if you custom research a spell your probably not going to get EXACTLY what you want if its balanced and because it has to meet the aproval of the DM. The one spell I did research in a campaign wasnt exactly what I wanted...my DM changed some things about it before he allowed it into the game.
Also for the record I dont neccsarily think their should be no cost at all. the time is a cost. and I dont even mind some gold cost, for wizards(but not sorcerers). I just think 1,000 gp/spell level is considerably excessive.
And thats a big part of my point. this game is ment to be played, how people want. which is why I resent being told that changing one thing is going to unbalance the game, without from most posters even a nod to the idea that it might not be that big a deal.

 

[Petrosian]

FWIW, i think spell research should cost as much in materials as learning a new spell does normally, particularly for sorcerers who are self-taught.

The biggest restriction i would see IN PLAy is time. It takes longer to develop something new than it does to learn something already figured out.

Again, this doesn't really apply for sorcerers who are self-taught, but one simple mechanism is to allow you to learn "new spells" as replacements for your class spells but to delay the "finishing" of new spells until halfway thru the level.

So, my wizard or sorcerer (taught by others) can pick fireball and have it now or pick snowball and have it when we get halfway to the next level.

******************

As for "exactly what i want"...

"Exactly what i want" and "exactly what I will need" are two radically different things, and as long as that remains true, then balance is easily maintained.

To put it simply, as soon as you need to hole up with three refugees (turning your four man party to seven) to fulfill your current quest, that smaller moveable rope trick can suddenly turn into a head-slapping "Wow! i could have had a full sized rope trick!" moment.

YMMV and clearly does.

Enjoy your games.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

i think its cheap as is. I'm not worried about ballance, so much as how much I think it should cost to research things. Invention and research are expenisve prospects IRL and I feel the gaming world will seem more realistic if it simulates that.

 

[Merlion]

I have no problem with that. its not how I see it but if you do, then do it that way.
What about Sorcerers and Bards tho? just out of curiosity.
Edit: also if you think things like that should cost a lot...i take it its that you feel creating something thats not been done before is harder than say learning a spell from an unusual sourcebook? Do you make wizard PCs take time to represent aquiring their 2 free spells per level?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

For bards if they want to invent a new song they have to take craft music,(DC20+spell level) and the costs are roughly the same. IMG while bards have a limit of known spells/songs they do not inately know magic, it is learned.

Sorcerers I let design spells for free.

All level up beneifts other than HP and saves require a training period in my game. A bit OT, but I also limit skill point spending to things that were used in the last level. If you never opened locks you can't put more than one point into it. But people can do little practice things during a level to help this.

 

[Merlion]

That sounds reasonble. I still think the research costs are to high myself and that the probable reasons behind it are not good. but if it makes sense to you/in your world you've no reason to change it.
Do sorcerers in your game have to use components for spells or no?
Yea like I've said I dont think training should be a big involved takes whole sessions kind of thing...but it should be their especialy for classes whose ablities are all or mostly learned(again a sorcerer from a logic standpoint could easily not be subject to many of thease things due to how they get their powers. Same for bards in most places). Otherwise I feel sort of like I'm getting something for nothing...and to me it causes inconstiencies(a wizard has to spend a day/level and money to scribe Scrying into his spellbook from a friends spell book but upon hitting 7th level Ice Storm and Stoneskin just apeared in his spellbook)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

IMW sorcerers do not use material components, all spells with expensie material components were either removed from their list, bumped up a level, or given an XP cost.

 

[AuraSeer]

but for some reason wizards can get the exact same increase for three prices. 2 such for free every level. however many they want for one price. and however many they want for another higher price that involves more creativity and RP. doesnt make sense to me.

I fail to see how this is in any way confusing.

Say I want to increase my Constitution. I can get the same increase for three different prices.

I could wait until I reach a level that's a multiple of 4, and raise my stat for free. A given character can only do this one per four levels, though, because allowing unlimited free ability scores would be unbalancing.

Or I could buy an amulet of health, for 4000 gp.

Or, I could buy a scroll of wish for 28,825 gp, and get a +1 inherent bonus.

These are three different methods for acheiving the same end. They have different limitations, so they have different prices. What's wrong with that?