Why does Undead=Evil

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

In the generic idea for D&D, there is no shade of grey. You are EVIL or GOOD. One or the other. No in between, no both.

...and yes, that's a very cruel situation to have to put a Paladin in.

 

[Scion]

There is of course a difference between 'not good' and 'Evil'.

Also, there is a difference between 'unlawful' and 'Evil'.


I have no problem with animating the dead not being evil. So long as it does nothing to the soul then there is no problem. Negative energy is not evil either and one could also power undead by positive energy if push came to shove.

By the core animate dead is an evil spell, and many undead are classified as evil. Although it doesnt really give any reason why. Especially since a good number of undead are nonintelligent, pretty hard to have an alignment if you have no intelligence. Animals are classified as neutral because they have no ability to distinguish right from wrong, are nonintelligent undead any different?

Houserule wise I have changed animate dead in former campaigns to be nonevil, merely a neutral act. Some forms are evil (those that do something with the soul) but merely useing someones body is not good or evil, but it can be lawful or unlawful. There are societies in various books and video games that are not evil and yet they use animated dead (with permission) to better society. No one really wants to muck the stables, but the animated dead will do it all day. There are lots of drudgery jobs that when the undead are doing it can free up people for more fullfilling tasks.

Effectively it can be treated the same as animating an object, what is the difference? One was built by process X and the other was built through process Y. So long as the soul is not disturbed then it is not evil, so long as it follows the laws of the lands then it is not unlawful.

 

[Patlin]

If animating the dead were simply a matter of moving the limbs of a corpse, it would be disrespectfull but not 100% evil. The rules don't go into much detail, so it depends on what description you throw on it as to how evil it is. When the rules say that animating the dead is evil, this is what I picture (your mileage may vary):

The necromancer drew upon the twisted powers of unlife, and drew the soul of the dead man back from the void. He sewed the immortal soul back on to the dead flesh by force, lancing it a thousand times with the corrupting power of darkness. The soul lent motive force to the body, and it rose. With dawning horror, the essence of the dead man became aware of more than the agony the dark power subjected it to. In horror, it realized that it was in the world, bt not a part of it. It lent power to its former body, but had no control over it. Only the energies of pure evil that the necromancer had conjured gave the Zombie direction, and the tortured soul had no choice but to ride in the vessel of decay that had been created. Subtly, on a level even the necromancer was unaware of, much of the energy from the animating spell seaped into the world, increasing the foothold of evil in the world. In an amount to minute to measure, the necromancer pulled his world closer to the abyss.

You could create a magic system where animated bodies had no moral element to them... but if you use something like the above to describe the animate dead spell, it's evil. Simply, utterly, without possibility of redemption evil.

 

[Fieari]

Patlin, that's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Perfect wording too!

 

[Sejs]

It's very simple why creating undead is an evil act, and it has nothing to do with defiling a corpse. When you animate undead, you are binding that person's soul back into his flesh to serve as the animatory force - you are stealing their soul from the afterlife (good or bad) and trapping in their corpse.

Not only that, but as far as most things are concerned (outside of a grand total of 2 spells that can counteract it), if the undead is then destroyed that person's soul is destroyed as well. No second chance at the afterlife. Just shredded beyond all recognition, no longer a cohesive soul, gone, destroyed.

Raising undead is an evil act because it demonstrates a profound selfishness such that you are willing to destroy someone's eternal soul just to make your life easier by animating a servant.


That clear enough?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, I guess I might be simple-minded, and ma always told me I had a terribly low IQ, but I always figured raising dead was evil because it's a perversion of the natural order, and a mockery of life itself. What once was the living vessel of an immortal soul becomes a grotesque puppet, powered by the energy of death itself. And within that cage of rotting flesh, the soul must lie in endless torment, ripped from the bliss of the afterlife and bound to a cage of filth and corruption.

 

[Tatsukun]

So let's see, you are a peasant in a small town and you work hard every day of your 30 years. Then, you die and pass on to (for the sake of argument, we'll say Pelor, but any god will work) Pelor's afterlife. You join your old friends and family on the other side. There is no work to do, no hunger, no responsibility.

Then, one day you are pulled back to the dead, rotten body you once had and are forced to do your master's bidding. You are a slave in your own horrid rotten skin.

But it's ok, the necro really needed to kill those goblins.

Sound evil?

-Tatsu

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is a lot of sloppy argument in this here thread...

1) Moff Tarkin is not calling those who disagree with him stupid. He is calling those who make snap judgements based on mere appearances stupid (albeit awkwardly). Big difference.

2) Every case of the "sacrifice X to save Y" conundrum is extremely fact specific. It may be worth killing 1000 innocents to save the scientist who is within reach of finding a cure for cancer. Similarly, it may be equally worth sacrificing an innocent so that 1000 other innocents escape to spread word to the world of the genocide in Sudan.

And that holds true even for the Paladin.

3) Dovetailing off of 2) supra, sometimes there is no other option, in life at least. I do agree, however, that it is somewhat unfair (and definitely dangerous to the campaign) to set up a Kobiashi Maru scenario in an RPG game UNLESS it significantly forwards the plot.

One need look no further back in history than the Nazis- there are documented reports of young Germans whose choice was kill X people or else. Those that chose not to slaughter Jews (or Gypsies, or homosexuals, or whomever the designated victims were to be that day) were killed, right alongside the people they refused to kill.

Seeing that made many other young Germans decide to save themselves...although they eventually payed the price at Nuremburg.

So, it may well be that the only choices are 1) YOU kill that innocent, or 2) We kill everyone including you.

4) Zweischneid, Evil doesn't neccessarily start off with good intentions. Sometimes evil beings start off that way. I'm pretty sure the sociopathic serial killer didn't start off maiming and killing out of a desire for good, other than perhaps to amuse himself, which at the very least, displays an alarming lack of empathy.

5) While animating the dead INVOLUNTARILY is clearly evil as a subversion of the natural order and being extremely disrepsectful of the dead AND the desires of their loved ones, the VOLUNTARY reanimation of the dead is not inherently evil. The person who embraces unlife to eternally guard his God's temple is not neccessarily evil, nor is the priest who performs the ceremony.

 

[Milkman Dan]

Also, I have played clerics who would use the speak with dead spell to ask the soul for permission to use his or her corpse for my cause and would only animate them with their permission. "Hey I want to use your corpse to help destroy the evil SOB who killed you. Is that ok?" Now is that really evil?

Except that speak with dead doesn't allow you to talk with someone's soul. You talk with an imprint that was left behind when the soul left the body. You could make an educated guess on what the soul actually wants, but it definitely isn't the soul talking. You are simply trying to retrieve memories of its life.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Undead=Evil

I think the original poster made a valid point.

D&D doesn't do a good enough job of detailing _why_ the Undead state automatically makes a creature evil.

For example, why does becoming a lich automatically make one evil? And, why are the elven Baelnorns in FR exempt from this?

See the Vlad Taltos novels (Jhereg, etc) for a portrayal of undead (the lich Sethra Lavode?) that are not necessarily Evil.

I think there are some problems with the way Undeath is handled. For example, by the rules, raising your defeated enemy as a skeleton (for the price of a 50gp gem and a 3rd level spell), ordering it into a metal box, locking the box, and burying it functions as a poor man's Trap The Soul -- the equivalent of a 9th level spell!

Also, an earlier poster said that destroying an undead destroys the soul as well. I'd like to see a cite to the rules supporting this assertion -- I've never seen it.

To me, the rules should say the following:

a creature with the Undead subtype has Needs, which it craves and must seek, and these Needs always involve causing harm to living creatures. In general, the more powerful the Undead, the greater its control over its own Needs. "Mindless" undead, like skeletons and zombies, are completely overwhelmed by their Needs, are unable to think of anything else, and pursue them relentlessly unless commanded. "Intelligent" undead have needs but can think independently about other things. A Ghoul, for example, has the Need "Eat the flesh of sentient beings every day". A Vampire has the need "drink the blood of the living every day". A Vampire, which is much more powerful than a Ghoul, has an easier time (perhaps the WILL save mechanic could be used for this) temporarily suppressing its Need.

The "Needs" would thus be the basis for Undeath being Evil, since they drive the Undead creature to do Evil things, and the repeated execution of Evil acts is well known to corrupt the Soul.

Ken McKinney