D&D 5E Why don't we like 5e? Here's why!

[WarlockLord]

There's a thread on these boards which is criticizing those who have decided that 5e will be bad/uninteresting/whatever. So, in an attempt to head off criticism, here's why I have no faith 5e will be any good.

1)The complexity dial is a stupid idea, or poor design goals. There, I said it. We've already seen what happens with complexity dial systems in 3.5 - they don't work, they're horrifically unbalanced, and they result in stupid crap like putting essentia points into your throat chakra to get extra Power Points you spend on your Mind Mage class feature to persist your spells while the simple fighter sits on his ass in the corner. Worse, it's going to ensure that you can't port them over to another campaign. And because this is Mearls and Cook we're talking about here, I'm sure someone will be able to break it in half before the books are released.

2)I have no idea what they're going for. Related to "stupid design goals" above, it's kind of hilarious to see a weekly poll of "what should we put in the game?" But this implies that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing. At all. And this scares me.

3)I have no faith in the playtest to fix anything. At this point, we can compare it to the Pathfinder playtest. In the Pathfinder playtest, many people attempted to point out that 3.5's infamous chain binding infinite wish loops were still there. They were ignored in favor of Pathfinder buffing wizards and nerfing fighters.

4)You can't please everyone Look, trying to make it like "all D&D editions that came before" is a noble goal, but it's not going to work and you're going to alienate a bunch of people with, say. 4e rituals.

5)This is the same team which brought us 4e Minus Monte Cook, that is. Whether you love 4e or hate it, you must admit that it and the fracturing of the playerbase is probably among the worst things that has happened to this hobby. I don't believe they can reunite the playerbase. Heck, according to ICv2 here Pathfinder is outselling D&D 4e based on the entire premise "we're not 4e!" By now, the battle lines are pretty entrenched and it's going to be really hard to get people out of them.

 

[Dausuul]

1)The complexity dial is a stupid idea, or poor design goals. There, I said it. We've already seen what happens with complexity dial systems in 3.5 - they don't work, they're horrifically unbalanced, and they result in stupid crap like putting essentia points into your throat chakra to get extra Power Points you spend on your Mind Mage class feature to persist your spells while the simple fighter sits on his ass in the corner.

What? I have no idea what you're talking about. Where did 3.5 implement "complexity dials?" As for lack of balance, the most broken class in 3E is the bog-standard Player's Handbook wizard, using spells out of the PHB (the Spell Compendium is just icing on the cake). The strongest challengers for "most broken class" are the PHB cleric and the PHB druid. The alternative caster classes from "Tome of Magic," which seem to be what you're objecting to, to were pathetically weak by comparison.

Because this is Mearls and Cook we're talking about here, I'm sure someone will be able to break it in half before the books are released.

5)This is the same team which brought us 4e.

If this is the same team that made 4E, then we should be expecting very strong game balance. If it's not, then there's no reason to expect the failures of 4E to be repeated. Make up your mind.

 

[Grazzt]

4)You can't please everyone Look, trying to make it like "all D&D editions that came before" is a noble goal, but it's not going to work and you're going to alienate a bunch of people with, say. 4e rituals.

I don't agree with all your points, but I do agree with this. It's noble and nice to come out and say "D&D for all", but it will never happen. No way any edition or a combo of all editions will please everyone. That goal, while admirable, is not possible. (No matter what the product is.)

5)This is the same team which brought us 4e Minus Monte Cook, that is. Whether you love 4e or hate it, you must admit that it and the fracturing of the playerbase is probably among the worst things that has happened to this hobby. I don't believe they can reunite the playerbase. Heck, according to ICv2 here Pathfinder is outselling D&D 4e based on the entire premise "we're not 4e!" By now, the battle lines are pretty entrenched and it's going to be really hard to get people out of them.

I do believe they can reunite the base. Not everyone. Not all. That won't happen. But a lot, yes. It's possible. Whether they take the steps to do so remains to be seen.

 

[the Jester]

I think most of the criticism being aimed at "not interested" posters has more to do with the fact that they've made up their minds without actually seeing anything at all from the actual game.

It's like deciding that you have no interest in the new Ambush Series that is going to be released in 2020 six years before it's announced.

The OP arguments... don't make much sense to me, honestly. Complexity dials sound like a great idea to me, but to each his or her own. I disagree completely that they were installed in 3e- part of the issue with 3e is that it's all super-complex (hello epic monster or villain creation that takes 8 hours!).

But, as always, play what you like; it just seems weird to me to decide you don't like something (that is a version of a game that you do like, presumably) before it's finalized, before you have seen ANY of the actual ruleset, before there's anything but wild rumors and speculation available.

Unless you were a DDXP playtester?

 

[Mattachine]

I will only post that I don't want to get involved in a discussion like this. Everyone needs to know that I don't want to be in this sort of discussion because of the following reasons . . .

 

[Sunseeker]

I think most of the criticism being aimed at "not interested" posters has more to do with the fact that they've made up their minds without actually seeing anything at all from the actual game.

THIS. Exactly this.

You can't hate a game you've never tried. Try it, then hate it.

 

[BobTheNob]

But, as always, play what you like; it just seems weird to me to decide you don't like something (that is a version of a game that you do like, presumably) before it's finalized, before you have seen ANY of the actual ruleset, before there's anything but wild rumors and speculation available.

Yea, Makes me wonder. I think of myself as a good judge of gaming material (I think most here would, else they wouldnt not post) but I dont think for a second that I have the gift of prophecy.

I seriously cant figure out if the OP has a genuine concern or is a troll.

 

[Glade Riven]

Hating something that is in a pre-alpha design phase and we know very, very little about is stupid.

There, I said it. Might get a mod warning out of it, but oh well. This thread smells of edition war bait, anyways.

What Monte is doing is trying to connect with fans instead of alienating fans. That's a bad thing...how, exactly? Sure, WotC has very little cred in this regard, but Monty himself has some solid design cred by making products that people want to buy - and being involved in the design of 3e, which more-or-less brought tabletop RPGs back from undeath whether you personally like the edition or not.

You know what I like? The current emphasis 5e has on Rule Zero. Play the game that you like, but still be able to play with others who may like something a little different at the same table.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Have I mentioned how much I hate the DLC for THE ELDER SCROLLS VI: SKYRIM and indeed THE ELDER SCROLLS VII? Cause...I sure...something. Or...the other.

 

[Mengu]

I don't know if I agree with why *we* don't like 5e, but I have my concerns for a different reason. After having tasted 4e, I never want to go back to an older edition. And 5e seems to basically be killing 4e, and taking us back in time to an infusion of older D&D editions. I'd rather see someone work on 4e, and take it forward. There will be no chance of that. If Pathfinder fans don't like what they see in 5e, they will have the option to stay with Pathfinder. 4e fans who don't like 5e, are SOL. On a personal note, if I don't like 5e, I might just branch out to different systems more, I'm liking Savage Worlds at the moment. So it's not the end of the world if I decide 5e is not for me.