Why don't you buy modules?

[Patlin]

I suscribe to Dungeon. I don't generally buy other modules, as my subscription brings a lot of material to my door in that regard.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

This is a very important point, one that most people never consider. When we, as consumers, complain about a company's products, we need to remember that the company may not see us as customers, just consumers.

Hmmm, I guess I am getting the wrong thing across.

Publishers, especially Necromancer Games and other small companies, do listen to their "customers/consumers" because we like the feedback and want to do our best to make our customers happy. We also HAVE to listen to the people we get our money from. If the distributors don't carry our products, you won't even see them on the shelves. ie. you can complain that nobody publishes modules while ours would rot in a warehouse. There have been numerous discussions about this on the Necromancer Boards. It is easy to claim the distributors are the "bad guys" and then pass than on down to the retailers as the "bad guys" but essentially if a product doesn't make the retailer money (ie. there is no consumer demand) they won't carry it. Before people start complaining about corporations or businesses seeking out the "almighty dollar," remember that people selling things for a living, or running a business must make money. Frankly, if you have employees you have an obligation to those employees to run your business in a way that makes enough money to pay their salaries. Sales of adventure modules are very, very slow. I know one retailer that won't carry modules if he can avoid it. Right now he carries WotC modules (some), Kenzer, and things through SSS/WW (which, thankfully, includes much of the Necromancer Games' products). Anything else is special order, he doesn't want adventures "cluttering up the shelves."

Now, if everyone on the boards went into their neighborhood game store manager and said, "Hey, we want 32-page adventures, start getting some in!" This would, er, not make a dent. Sorry, as large as the population is on these boards, people here are a mere fraction of game buyers that the retailers cater to. On the other hand, if you all went to the store and ordered/pre-ordered small adventures that might help .

Direct marketing is a "whole 'nother ball o' wax." For publishers, direct sales amount to a mere fraction of sales through distribution channels. We need to achieve enough sales to pay the artists, cartographers, etc. Right now, direct sales methods simply can't garner enough sales to support this. We have looked at various "subscription" ideas, prepayment plans, limited editions, etc. and none of these create enough revenue to pay for the quality artwork and cartography we want, let alone pay the writers (yeah! pay writers more money!-subliminal message ending ...). Do we write these off? No, we are constantly looking at a wide variety of ideas to get our products directly to the customer/final consumer.

E-publishing can be direct to the consumer, but it still hasn't really "taken off." Until there are easier and better "page readers" for electronic format books, and problems in the dichotomy between ease of use and ease of theft are solved, electronic publishing is going to remain a small fraction of the potential market for a product. I think there are huge potentials for the e-publishing market in general, not just for rpgs, but they simply haven't developed yet. I believe it will be a number of years before e-publishing in general begins to meet its potential.

Print products sell multiples of what e-products do. Greater sales=greater income=greater ability to purchase good art, etc. Artwork and cartography (especially good art and cartography) costs $. If you settle for lower sales you have to settle for lower quality art, less art, etc

Electronic products still suffer some size limitation problems for graphic and the perception that they aren't as high quality. I have seen some very, very high quality small publisher work as e-products. Unless someone has a big name, or a huge internet following, sales are mediocre, at least when compared to print.

Right now publishing, all publishing really, is a dynamic, changing field. Changes in software, display abilities, file sizes, internet speeds, printing technology, and binding capacities, are changing the face of publishing.

Whatever the state of publishing and distribution might be, the major complaint I have seen in this thread about published adventures is the need to change them around for a campaign. As a writer I can say that I honestly do my best to keep a campaign "generic" enough to be easily changed, tweaked, modified, or whatever to fit into someone else's campaign. I presume that every person purchasing an adventure is going to run it slightly differently.

Okay, really got to go now...

Patrick

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Hmmm, I guess I am getting the wrong thing across.

Publishers, especially Necromancer Games and other small companies, do listen to their "customers/consumers" because we like the feedback and want to do our best to make our customers happy.

My apologies if I wasn't clear - I didn't mean to imply that good companies don't listen to consumers. Of course they do. But, as you say, a company has more than one group to satisfy if it's to be successful. And I don't envy you guys that task - I suspect it's a lot more difficult than it looks. But what's the alternative? A company that focuses only on the consumer, or the retailer, or the distributer, or the employee, etc. is going to fail, probably sooner rather than later.

 

[Sir Elton]

Thanks for keeping an open mind! I prefer generic modules, too, and when I see something too world specific, I'm usually not interested either. The World of Whitethorn series is probably one of the more generic settings out there. If your local gaming store doesn't take an order for the books, why not support EN World and order them here?

This is a link to the d20 Fantasy section of the EN World RPG Shop:

http://enworld.rpgshop.com/default.php?cPath=_1_260&

I'm writing my modules the other way. Setting generic doesn't work for the modules I like to write. I often look to the classics for inspiration. Classic stories like the Odyssey, Jason and the Argonauts, tales of history, etc. Sometimes I go for a particular locale on Earth and write a module around it's mythic history. That being said, GURPS, Ars Magica, and the 2nd Edition Historical References have converted me to play in the ORIGINAL GENERIC WORLD!

Why is this? Truth is often stranger than fiction. I feel that you can have as much fun playing a story out based on intrigue in the Roman Senate, performing acts of Chivalry in King Arthur's Court, calling on the power of faith in God in the Battle of Jericho, Kung-Fu butt-kicking a few demons in Ancient China, or even being Rama and saving Sita. The modules that I buy should give you enough impetus to play heroes of this sort.

I mean think about it. Earth is the original Generic world. I can write and publish an interesting adventure around figures of history that can be easily put into an existing campaign world. Take Julius Caesar and his assassination. That can be turned into an adventure quite easily. The Dictator of the Known World is murdered and the player characters must figure out who did it as the Republic crumbles (although in a Magic Roman campaign, Caesar would have used his Magic to destroy the conspirators). Truth can be stranger than fiction.

I can make a published adventure from Cleopatra and Marc Antony, one from Culhwch and Olwen, one from Beowulf (although that already has been done), one from the Ramayana, and even one from Chinese Myth.

What I'm getting at is that a Dungeon Crawl is really not all that exciting. Go in and knock the senses out of some Orcs and other non-humans and take away their squatters' rights at the edge of a sword. It's cliche, it's boring, and the only motivation is to clear out the dungeon so that future generations can be safe. Wow, how uninteresting on paper. Although some DMs had fun with the typical Dungeon Crawl (One DM had a bawl with the Prisoners of the Maze series); on paper the Dungeon Crawl is cliched. So I'm looking at history for a while now. I mean, how many mysterious places in the world has a story around them? All of them. You can write an entire adventure about a lost city like Angkor Wat or Zimbabwe and with a little work make it fit your campaign.

I mean, how hard is it to write adventures about Real Events and Real Places and transport them to your campaign? Not so hard. We need to stop writing Cliched adventures and start drawing on real history and real places. There is more stories on Earth than there is in a made up fantasy world to please dozens of Gamers.

 

[rounser]

To me, modules are the best resource for building/adding to campaigns. Not sourcebooks or other campaign material.

Yep, and the average DM gets it bass ackward, and thinks that the setting and house rules is the basis of the campaign, and that the adventures are subservient to that. It's the other way around - the adventures ARE the campaign so far as the players are concerned. The setting is the window dressing that should support that, but too often ends up dictating terms instead...maintaining setting integrity taking precedence over whether the adventures (and by extension, the actual campaign) are actually any fun to play.

e.g. The first thought when a typical DM decides he or she is going to run a new campaign is invariably "what setting shall I use", not "what adventures/story arc do I want to present".

 

[Ed Cha]

I'm writing my modules the other way. Setting generic doesn't work for the modules I like to write. I often look to the classics for inspiration.

If you're looking for purely historical adventures, I'd suggest the Avalanche Press books:
http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AP&Category_Code=d20

Their d20 supplements are focused on real-life (or close enough) historical events or locations such as Egypt and China.

Anyhow, have you picked up any of the Open World Press books? I think you should. The current series is centered around the fictional "Kingdom of Calas", which was inspired by Celto-Saxon history and culture along with that of the Vikings. It parallels the story of Britain in some ways. Although it might be hard to see by just reading the book, you'll notice little things like the rulers have pseudo-Nordic names and the indigeous population has largely Celtic-type names.

Here is a brief background piece for the setting (optional for using with the books):
http://www.openworldpress.com/b.php?p=history_calas

You might want to see for yourself though. You can pick up the OWP books here at the EN World RPG shop or at your local gaming store.

By the way, the latest book, "World of Whitethorn 1B: The Village of Oester", just received another five star rating right here on EN World:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=currentprod&which=WoW1TVoO

Patrick has made some very good points. Basically, it comes down to "If you don't buy them, people will stop making them." And all you'll have are mostly low-production/poor-quality products with very little or crappy art. Or just stuff you find in a magazine or as a free download. If that's what you want, then that's what you'll get. Simple as that.

I make my own adventures and yet I buy tons of them all the time. I own hundreds of adventures from different systems and sources (modules, setting books, magazines, pamphlets, etc). How many have I actually used? Only a few. I find it hard to believe that some people think they're more creative because they don't buy any. To me, that's like a writer saying, "I'm so brilliant that I can write my own books, so I don't need to read any more books ever again." That's just me though.

 

[Sir Elton]

If you're looking for purely historical adventures, I'd suggest the Avalanche Press books:
http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AP&Category_Code=d20

Their d20 supplements are focused on real-life (or close enough) historical events or locations such as Egypt and China.

I have some of those. Unfortunately, the GURPS versions are the ones to be more desired. Their work just can't compare.

Anyhow, have you picked up any of the Open World Press books? I think you should. The current series is centered around the fictional "Kingdom of Calas", which was inspired by Celto-Saxon history and culture along with that of the Vikings. It parallels the story of Britain in some ways. Although it might be hard to see by just reading the book, you'll notice little things like the rulers have pseudo-Nordic names and the indigeous population has largely Celtic-type names.

I'd like too, but I need to get the adventure I'm working on now published first. It's based on Jason and the Argonauts, and I'm putting my all into it so that it can rival GURPS stuff.

 

[Sir Elton]

Bump.

 

[Cyberhawk]

Hey all,
There are several reasons why I don't buy modules. Mainly I like to make the adventures myself. It's one of they joys of being a DM is figuring out what the bad guys are about to do to the PCs.
Also, I feel when I purchase them that I'm spending money on something that I will only use once. Plus I'll have to spend time modifying it to my campaign/setting so it's not like it would save me a lot of time.

There have been exceptions:
I pick up Dungeon each month becuase I feel it's a good value. Several adventures for $7, plus Polyhedron. Not too bad.

I picked up a fair number of adventures back when I was running Dark Sun 2e, mainly becuase I enjoyed the setting so much that I wanted to get as much of the published material as I could. I got burned a few times (too many "lead the PCs around by the nose" elements) but over all I liked them.

Anyways, that's my 2 coppers...

 

[MerricB]

Sometimes I wish there was an anti-bump, to send a thread to the deepest pits of hell where it belongs.

Oh, sorry... not this thread. This is a good thread.

Cheers!