D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Aldarc

Legend
[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION], that is a lot of text to respond to. Suffice to say, I'll just tersely say that I do not entirely agree with your assessment though I do respect that you have reasons - that I do not obviously share - for liking the Forgotten Realms. So for the sake of not really wanting to get bogged back down in this discussion, I would like to respectfully agree to disagree with you here. But I wanted to let you know that I have attentively read your post.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I must say, Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is one book I'd like to browse, but have never seen.

However, my great fear is that, like too many other FR books, adventures, etc, the fact that Elminster features, is an immediate turn-off; I just can't stomach Galdalf er I mean Elminster turning up and leading the players by the nose, any more than I can Elminster or Volo or anyone else's "in character" descriptions of things... I just want some simple background info, plot hooks, etc, so I can be inspired to flesh them out. I sure don't want Elminster or Volo or Drizzt or any other super-over-used DM-NPC type in my games (as a player or DM). Hence the "Hate" ;)

I'll have to check the book, but other than the foreword, if anything, I don't recall Elminster appearing at all (yes, he "writes" the foreword). Nor any "in character" descriptions. It describes what the Realms are like for the people, but the Realms that Ed created, and in the sidebars it goes through how the original Gray Box was put together from his notes.

I've always liked the articles in Dragon where Elminster "visits" Ed, or Volo, both as a guide, and as a foil against Elminster (and the sniping footnotes). But if you don't like the characters and/or the writing I can see how that is an issue.

It is a supplement that's almost entirely fluff, combined with a bit of background on how the setting came to be a (the?) D&D setting. There is almost no crunch, because it was released at the tail end of 4e, and seems to have been published specifically as a non-edition specific book. There are a few things (like some diseases and poisons) that have descriptions, but no mechanics. It does have the type of lore that many people don't like (a couple of pages of phrases, a section on the theater and entertainment, food and cuisine, clothing, etc.).

It is a bit scattered, since it doesn't address the geography and such, it's really more a description of the people of the Realms, and how they live. Each chapter jumps all over the place. The only other supplement that comes to mind right now that's similar is the Dragonlance book Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home (and to your point, as much as I liked the concept and the book, I didn't care for the characters and writing style of that book myself).

Some lengthy quotes:

Race Relations
"The folk of the Dales have typical backland human attitudes, hating and fearing half-orcs be-cause they can't distinguish them from the ore mercenaries used so often by Zhentil Keep in Daggerdale. Some also mistake half-orcs for the beast-men (ogres) ofThar, having never seen real ogres (and lived to tell the tale), and will reach for the nearest weapon. Almost all humans, elves, and dwarves in the Realms mistrust small, non-familial groups of orcs (four or fewer), and will be openly hostile to larger groups. As an old upcountry saying plainly states: "Orcs is trouble." (Or, in full: "Orcs is al-ways trouble.") Orcs are born fighters, which just keep coming back for more. (And, the smaller inner voices of most non-orcs add silently, orcs will kill you and then eat you. Some of them won't even wait until you're dead!)" ... "Across Faerun, "everyone knows" that elves flit from one delight to the next diversion, and they crave and master the most beautiful music, danc-ing, and visual arts linked to flowing, growing life. It is likewise commonly held that dwarves are stolid, stubborn hard workers, and master forg-ers, who have unequaled skill in working stone and metal, creating new alloys, and deep, swift mining. Of course, as everyone in the Realms who re-ally thinks about such things knows, all of these widely known views are stereotypes and gener-alizations, with thousands upon thousands of exceptions."

News
"Most news and rumors are spread across the Realms by caravans, and along coasts, by the crews of ships. In many a wayside settlement, whenever a caravan stops for the night, the popu-lace turns out at local inns and taverns to hear the latest "clack" (what's being talked about). Trav-elers can often earn something to eat or a drink or two by relating enough entertaining lore. The freshest news is the most in demand-which, of course, leads to embroidering and outright tall tales, lies and half-truths and rumors building on each other into fanciful creations that bear little resemblance to their plainer and more demure beginnings."

Commoners
"In most locales in the Realms, non-noble men and women are considered equals but have tra-ditional roles or fields of dominance. For men, this dominance extends to warfare, sea voyaging, and smithing, and for women, hearth and home and shop keeping. In guilds, members' rights and privileges are never based on gender. In addition, while most Faerfmian lands have social classes based on wealth and heritage, rigid castes that a person is born into and dies without leaving are found nowhere in the Realms."

Hospitality in the Dales
"It's the custom throughout most of the Dale-lands to give a visitor in summer a cup of water to drink, and a bowl of water in which to bathe one's feet. Visitors do the bathing and the removal of footwear themselves, and can refuse either kind of aid without insulting the host. In winter, a visitor is given warm water or warmed oils for his or her feet, and a place by the fire, stove, or whatever source of heat is available, plus something warm to drink. Again, refusing is not an insult. Visitors who come armed with battle weap-onry are expected to promise "peace upon this house," which is a literal promise of "I won't draw a weapon or use it while under this roof, nor set fire to the lodging itself." Thereafter, visitors are expected to offer their sheathed swords to the lady of the house for safekeeping until their departure. By tradition, the lady of the house, who is the senior mentally competent woman in residence, puts the sheathed weapon in her bed overnight so no one can get to it in the dark hours of slumber and shed blood; but in actual practice the weapon is often hung from the rafters, laid on a mantel, or hidden. If it is hidden, it must be yielded up speedily when the guest announces his or he intended departure, or else the guest is entitled to do violence to recover it. "

Religion
"Almost all beings in Faerun worship many gods; as a rule, only zealots and clergy venerate just one deity. In other words, a farmer could mainly re-vere Chauntea, but also pray to appease Talos to keep crop-damaging storms away, Malar to keep beasts from attacking him or his .folk in the fields and to send vermin elsewhere, Talona to keep dis-ease and blight at bay, and so on." ... "The average Faerunian lives long enough to worship (or serve through one's actions) one deity above all others-though in many cases, which deity a given person has served most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else. " ... "...he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook. Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result oftheir actions are renounced by their gods), despoil altars and frus-trate the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either Faithless or False. "

The coverage of the gods is interesting. He does use Cyric, for example, but not Kelemvor - Mask, Myrkul, Waukeen and others remain. Bane has returned, so obviously he was deposed. Keep in mind that when this was published (4e), the list of gods was very different. But this was also covering gods that had been officially gone for several editions.

Magic
"By deliberate design, there's a lot of magic in the Realms-too much for any one person to know, keep track of, or memorize all the rules and details of. It's supposed to take you unawares, or surprise you, or keep you guessing. It is supposed to impart a sense of wonder that occasionally rears into the spectacular. It is meant to give the weak and downtrodden some hope, by enabling them to see that chances lie ahead in their lives. Given that Mystra is opposed to tyranny, magic is not supposed to make every ruler a wizard-emperor, but rather bring about a world in which most arcane spell-hurlers are independent. Even a humble farmer who gets surprised in his hayloft could burst forth with a wild talent-magic he might not even have known he possessed, until that frantic moment. Magic is truly everywhere." ... "Very magical, in that a lot of magic (spells, magic items, and ongoing enchantments and wards) is always around, and that means a lot of wizards and sorcerers too. In addition, everyone has heard tales of magic, and most city folk see uses or results of magic daily, often in the form of glow-stones and similar magical light sources. However, the average common laborer, crafter, servant, farmer or shopkeeper has never felt magic cast on him or her, or handled anything bearing a dweomer or that could be called a magic item. (In the Realms, regardless of specific game meanings, most folk talk of "enchanted items" and "en-chantments" rather than saying "magic items" or "There's a spell on that chair.") Moreover, the average person has never hired anyone to cast a spell or had such a person under command. Magic is dangerous and very expensive. Many com-mon people have seen magic used, but usually at a distance, or in the form of the trickery spells of traveling hedge wizards who entertain. Most people are fascinated by it and will rush or creep to watch it in action, full of awe but also fear. To most folk of Faerun, there's nothing everyday or casual about magic; they don't really think about how much it shapes their lives and societies."

That should give you an idea of the content of the book.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION], that is a lot of text to respond to. Suffice to say, I'll just tersely say that I do not entirely agree with your assessment though I do respect that you have reasons - that I do not obviously share - for liking the Forgotten Realms. So for the sake of not really wanting to get bogged back down in this discussion, I would like to respectfully agree to disagree with you here. But I wanted to let you know that I have attentively read your post.

You expected less from a Forgotten Realms fan? ;)
 





Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Of course. I just would have preferred less apologetic text and a little more sympathy for why people may find the Realms off-putting.

Hmmm. I went back to my response to your post and I'm not sure what I said to offend. I apologize if I did. I will happily make clarification/restitution where I did. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I get that the Realms isn't for everybody. I'm not a huge fan of the Dragonlance setting myself. Some of the characters I like, some of the concepts and stories, but as a whole it just doesn't work for me. I dislike the design of kender, gully dwarves, and draconians to start with, three concepts that are pretty central.

I'm not even a fan of everything in the Realms.

So if you don't like the Forgotten Realms, I'm quite OK with that and fully support that.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Coercive polytheism. Icky.

(Shrugs)
1st: Repeat after me: It's not real.
2nd: Eh. It's not any different than reading about various real world myths/religions that you don't ascribe to. Stories & BS. Some more entertaining, some less.
3rd: Just because some one wrote a bunch of crap in a D&D book doesn't mean you have to use it in your game. Use whatever bits fit the stories your trying to tell & just ignore the rest.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Coercive polytheism. Icky.

Yep. And quite likely the sort of thing an actual living god that has a direct influence on the world is likely to do. Especially if the faith (or lack therof) of people in that world have an actual impact on the god.

It's also not any different from most religions that have a heaven/hell concept where all the "good" people (that worship me) get to go to heaven and everybody else...doesn't.

The first case is one where an active god is behind the coercion. The second is zealous followers. In my campaign, since I don't really address anything that actually happens in the planes, I consider it the second.

Religion can be among the least tolerant organizations around.

Yeah, Coercive Monotheism is the way to go man
Personally, I find DnD religion to be kind of a fascinating thing to explore, so all my characters tend to have a deity just as a matter of course.

Absolutely.

Because of its polytheism, and the fact that its polytheism is relatively consistent across the entire continent, the Realms doesn't tend to have the religious wars that dominated our own medieval eras. Religion, or the misappropriation/misrepresentation of religion, is probably among the most significant causes of most historical conflicts period.

So I think that it's reasonable that a lot of the conflicts within a fantasy polytheistic world, the Realms or otherwise, would still be religiously driven. The main difference being that the religious differences generally don't equal regional or national differences. There are exceptions in the Realms. For example, the Zhentarim had a strong connection to the church of Bane. The open cities and towns (Zhentil Keep, Llorkh, and Orlbar the primary ones) were ruled in the manner of a state with a national religion. But that's rare in the Realms.
 

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