D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Ilbranteloth]

It's really just a label, the term "gods". I generally use the Planescape designation of "Powers". I find that suits the themes of my campaign and the sensibilities of my players and I quite well.

In the future, however, I expect official material produced by WotC to adhere to my personal preference so that I can let my ability to reason take a little nap.

Officially, that's the term used in the Forgotten Realms, and was carried over to Planescape. It's just not used consistently.

 

[SkidAce]

It doesn't matter whether gods are gods or not. Or even if they exist.

Monotheism and Polytheism are societal systems of thought or religion.

Fantasy world has a religion that has one deity only, that religion is monotheistic.

A religion that has several deities, is polytheistic.

Both exist (from the point of view of the followers) in the same world?

Well then group A might think B is wrong.

Group B is chilled, cause they already acknowledge multiple gods, OR even they think A are wrong.

The world itself is neither mono or poly from an absolute point, its all from the point of view of the followers.

 

[JeffB]

God(s) forbid any of you ever play a game in Glorantha.

That's an instant coronary for anyone who wants to debate realism in a fictional world theology.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, I said D&D setting, perhaps I should have said published D&D setting. I don't recall any settings offhand where a cleric wasn't dedicated to a specific deity, rather than a group of deities.

I don't recall a setting where that is specifically true. The settings provide specific pantheons, but don't go out of their way to eliminate that language from any of the 1e-4e PHBs. That means that you could be a cleric in FR, Greyhawk, etc. and follow the pantheon, rather than a specific god. Darksun of course being the exception.

 

[Remathilis]

I hate to interrupt the discussion of Gods and Powers, but I had a discussion with a friend (a huge FR buff) who suggested something interesting...

We were talking about Curse of Strahd and, how except for minor differences, Strahd is just a MM spellcaster-variant vampire (with a higher Int score a few different spells) and Mordenkainen was a MM archmage (rather than a unique NPC stat block). Accerack in ToH is a MM demi-lich as well (with his variant power in the MM). It appears that, with a few exceptions, WotC ok with not custom crafting stat blocks for NPCs and is willing to use MM stat blocks for famous heroes and monsters. This lead us to a thought about how other "NPCs" in the Realms might now be as powerful as they were made before.

What if, Elminster is an MM archmage rather than a 30+ level fighter/cleric/thief/wizard/archmage that 3e had him as? What is Artemis is a 16th level rogue (assassin), Drizzt a 16th level ranger (hunter)? The Seven Sisters weren't epic level but Challenge 12-14 NPCs?

What if the "epic demigods of FR" aren't so mechanically epic anymore? That a group of mid-levels PCs could take out Elminster or Drizzt? They are high levels for sure, and Elminster is still capable of 9th level magic, but They aren't the Epic Level Gods of 2e or 3e anymore? (Most of their story exploits being owed to plot-armor and convenience) Thus, we can answer why can't Elminster go and solo Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat? Well, can a challenge 12 take out a challenge 30 solo by himself? Grab the stat blocks and try it. Hell, give Elminster help from Kelban and Allustrial (MM archmages) as allies and have them take on Demogorgon (Challenge 25, OOtA) and see how that combat plays.

Once you frame the notion like that, I wonder if it changes the notion of "why isn't Elminster stopping the Underdark invasion of demons" when he's more limited to what a 20th level wizard can do rather than a 30th level rules monstrosity...

 

[SkidAce]

That is how I normally construct the NPCs in my homebrew, and would endorse this in the FR.

Good thought [MENTION=50658]Rem[/MENTION]althilis

 

[Maxperson]

I hate to interrupt the discussion of Gods and Powers, but I had a discussion with a friend (a huge FR buff) who suggested something interesting...

We were talking about Curse of Strahd and, how except for minor differences, Strahd is just a MM spellcaster-variant vampire (with a higher Int score a few different spells) and Mordenkainen was a MM archmage (rather than a unique NPC stat block). Accerack in ToH is a MM demi-lich as well (with his variant power in the MM). It appears that, with a few exceptions, WotC ok with not custom crafting stat blocks for NPCs and is willing to use MM stat blocks for famous heroes and monsters. This lead us to a thought about how other "NPCs" in the Realms might now be as powerful as they were made before.

What if, Elminster is an MM archmage rather than a 30+ level fighter/cleric/thief/wizard/archmage that 3e had him as? What is Artemis is a 16th level rogue (assassin), Drizzt a 16th level ranger (hunter)? The Seven Sisters weren't epic level but Challenge 12-14 NPCs?

What if the "epic demigods of FR" aren't so mechanically epic anymore? That a group of mid-levels PCs could take out Elminster or Drizzt? They are high levels for sure, and Elminster is still capable of 9th level magic, but They aren't the Epic Level Gods of 2e or 3e anymore? (Most of their story exploits being owed to plot-armor and convenience) Thus, we can answer why can't Elminster go and solo Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat? Well, can a challenge 12 take out a challenge 30 solo by himself? Grab the stat blocks and try it. Hell, give Elminster help from Kelban and Allustrial (MM archmages) as allies and have them take on Demogorgon (Challenge 25, OOtA) and see how that combat plays.

Once you frame the notion like that, I wonder if it changes the notion of "why isn't Elminster stopping the Underdark invasion of demons" when he's more limited to what a 20th level wizard can do rather than a 30th level rules monstrosity...

It wasn't just 3e though. 1e and 2e put out individual stats for named NPCs as well. I don't see anything wrong with switching them over to MM versions if that makes things better for your games, but for me personally, it removes the name Elminster from Elminster and turns him into MM wizard #4726153. I wouldn't do that for my games.

 

[Remathilis]

It wasn't just 3e though. 1e and 2e put out individual stats for named NPCs as well. I don't see anything wrong with switching them over to MM versions if that makes things better for your games, but for me personally, it removes the name Elminster from Elminster and turns him into MM wizard #4726153. I wouldn't do that for my games.

Fair enough; a compromise where an NPC like Elminster is built on that chassis, but has a few additional unique abilities and spells? Still not as powerful as building him with the PC rules, which is ok with me.

 

[Maxperson]

Fair enough; a compromise where an NPC like Elminster is built on that chassis, but has a few additional unique abilities and spells? Still not as powerful as building him with the PC rules, which is ok with me.

That could work, but again for me personally, I have no issues with some NPCs being as powerful as PCs for reasons I detailed much earlier in the thread. Of course, by the time my PCs hit those kinds of levels, they too have unique abilities and items not found in the published books. I'm less concerned with balance than I am with fun.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I hate to interrupt the discussion of Gods and Powers, but I had a discussion with a friend (a huge FR buff) who suggested something interesting...

We were talking about Curse of Strahd and, how except for minor differences, Strahd is just a MM spellcaster-variant vampire (with a higher Int score a few different spells) and Mordenkainen was a MM archmage (rather than a unique NPC stat block). Accerack in ToH is a MM demi-lich as well (with his variant power in the MM). It appears that, with a few exceptions, WotC ok with not custom crafting stat blocks for NPCs and is willing to use MM stat blocks for famous heroes and monsters. This lead us to a thought about how other "NPCs" in the Realms might now be as powerful as they were made before.

What if, Elminster is an MM archmage rather than a 30+ level fighter/cleric/thief/wizard/archmage that 3e had him as? What is Artemis is a 16th level rogue (assassin), Drizzt a 16th level ranger (hunter)? The Seven Sisters weren't epic level but Challenge 12-14 NPCs?

What if the "epic demigods of FR" aren't so mechanically epic anymore? That a group of mid-levels PCs could take out Elminster or Drizzt? They are high levels for sure, and Elminster is still capable of 9th level magic, but They aren't the Epic Level Gods of 2e or 3e anymore? (Most of their story exploits being owed to plot-armor and convenience) Thus, we can answer why can't Elminster go and solo Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat? Well, can a challenge 12 take out a challenge 30 solo by himself? Grab the stat blocks and try it. Hell, give Elminster help from Kelban and Allustrial (MM archmages) as allies and have them take on Demogorgon (Challenge 25, OOtA) and see how that combat plays.

Once you frame the notion like that, I wonder if it changes the notion of "why isn't Elminster stopping the Underdark invasion of demons" when he's more limited to what a 20th level wizard can do rather than a 30th level rules monstrosity...

I think that is very accurate; the epic-ness of the FR NPCs is an artifact of the 3E Epic Level Handbook. They put that book out and then wanted a aetting that used those features. Same thibg with 4E and the epic tier of play, although I'm mostly guessing at that since my 4E experience is minimal.

They craft NPCs according to the rules f the prevailing edition. I personally have crafted NPCs like Iggwilv and Eclavdra using PC creation rulea in 5E, but honestly, I don't think they're all that much better than the simpler versions I'd come up with if designing them per the MM format.

Ultimately, I think 5E has dialed back the uber-casters of the 3E and 4E era.