D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Mercule]

You do realize with all the beep replace with "Junk Fiction" from the 80s which were D&D tie ins, I quit reading them. And consider them to be a money grab. And other things.
Pss I loved Gord the Rogue was published just in time for the 1E release of books in 1985

The nice thing about the Gord books, was that it didn't matter whether they were canon. Gord wasn't powerful enough to impact what the PCs were doing. Since most adventuring happened below name level, that was totally appropriate -- he was just another adventurer.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Yeah. I wondered about that, but I've only been in Kansas on a technicality (Kansas City, mostly MO), so I didn't want to make any assumptions. It's kinda like everyone saying that Iowa is super flat. Growing up in the Loess Hills, I'd have to disagree. It's not exactly the Rockies, but it's far from flat. Nebraska, on the other hand.... I don't think there's actually a single hill on I-80 between Lincoln and the Colorado border -- if you drop a gum drop, it counts as terrain.

Oh, yeah. I'm from Sheldon originally. It's pretty flat up there. Been to KC, also, and driven through Kansas from Colorado on a college band tour. Also pretty flat.

And yeah, Nebraska. 'Nuff said about them!

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, I read more into what you were saying than you meant, and then later down the thread someone did ask me to find it. I feel like that is karma talking.[/quote[ LOL No worries!

Where are the gods written out in 5e? Tiamat has an avatar, but no one else has been statted have they? And I’m sure plenty of beings had abilities involving XP in old editions. Undead used to have the ability to grant negative levels after all. However that worked in the game lore.

Without rules stating what they can do, they can't do it unless the DM creates a rule that they can. I've already acknowledged that house rules can allow gods to grant exp.

But, the fact that the company felt the need to call it out speaks towards the community that was involved. Sure, they may have assumed with no evidence, but after a long enough time the community making the assumption there is little difference between official canon and assumed canon.

Canon itself is a product of the community that consumes the material after all.

So as long as someone assumes something is canon, it becomes canon? That kinda renders canon useless as a metric. Only the company/creator(depending on the situation) can determine canon. Nobody else can, no matter how many of them there are. You can get a large group that treats something is if it was canon, but it won't actually be canon.

I have options sure, but how many times can I use each excuse? If I have players who care about such things the fact that everyone else is conveniently busy when the plot arrives will begin to wear thin.

If you're attacking major cities so many times that the reasons stop working, you have nobody to blame but yourself as the DM. Again, this is an example of you as the DM creating the problem. There are enough different reasons out there that you can attack major cities a half dozen times in a campaign and not reach the "wearing thin" point, maybe even more.

I know as a player I started getting frustrated with the Guard of Waterdeep in the mercenary game I was playing in. Time and time again we would have an issue, something would be threatening someone or something mysterious would be going on or someone would be missing, and we’d hear “And the guards won’t do anything about it so I turned to you”.

Heh. Maybe I'm just a different sort of player than you, but if I was in that situation, I'd have told that person, "I'm going to help you, and then I'm going to start investigating the guard for corruption. Too often I hear that they won't help those in need.", putting the DM on notice.

And sure, that was the story, we were mercs, and having the guards fixing all the problems would make us unnecessary, but seriously, why does this major city have the most useless and lazy guards ever? Like, this New York essentially, and we never encountered the police doing anything about serious threats to the city. Cult in the sewers? Meh. Giants destroying farms? Meh. Major Demon summoned and ravishing the countryside? Meh. Rash of mysterious deaths? Meh. We never even got the guard coming to us admitting they couldn’t handle the problem, it was always just that they didn’t care enough to get involved or send anyone to look into it. It let us be the heroes but it made my character who was a former army officer insane, because all I wanted to do was go and beat them into shape so they actually protected the city.

See, that's another DM error. Not necessarily a bad DM, but a mistake in my opinion based on what little you've said. If you were going to be mercenaries going about doing things that the guard should do, he should have place you in Baldur's Gate where the Flaming Fist mercenary company is in charge of guarding the city, as well as it's other mercenary contracts. There would have been no conflict in play when you undertook guard like duties, and you would still have been able to go do other mercenary things.

You are the one who keeps insisting Raistlin is the exact same as Elminster. That competing against the PCs is therefore the exact same as helping them.

I never said that. I said the exact details that make them different don't matter when it comes to overshadowing PCs or not. Raistlin can overshadow PCs or not, depending on how the DM chooses to run him. The same goes for Elminster and Mordenkainen. All of them can compete directly with the PCs. All of them can use minions. All of then can be off doing their own things and never come across the PCs at all. Their differences don't change any of that.

Having Raistlin show up and fight the PCs enough times for him to overshadow them would be like playing one of those JRPGs where you have the fight you are scripted to lose, only instead of happening just once to show how powerful the villain was it happens at the end of every single dungeon. Very few people would be ridiculous enough to do that. However, it is much less ridiculous to have a powerful ally show up to help at the start of every dungeon. And, it takes a lot fewer times for that to happen at the table for people to get fed up with it.

It would only be once and the PCs would be dead

The competition would have to be for a goal, not against one another. Which leads to another question. How often is enough to overshadow? Based on complaints here, it seems once is enough for some people.

It is a matter of degree, a matter of nuance, I won’t deny that. Heck, it’s a matter of table preferences and player tolerances too. But if it was never an issue, no one would say it is an issue. If no one thought Driz’zt being a heroic drow and people playing Driz’zt clones was a problem, no one would say it is a problem.

My take on the Driz'zt close issue is that most people probably didn't have a problem the first, or even the second and third time they saw a Driz'zt clone. It was the sheer numbers of them that popped up that did it. The same thing happens the more you watch a movie. Most people can't watch the same movie 15 or 20 times. Some can. I'm not one of them.

But, those high level NPCs are actually everywhere. I’m sure a list of all the high level NPCs officially in FR would be far higher than the list of superheroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

No. I've played the Realms for decades and the number of high level NPCs is very high, but not that high. Marvel on the other hand has tremendous numbers of heroes. Back in the 80's the Marvel RPG put out a series of books with all the heroes and villains in it. It took up multiple thick volumes, and they've added even more heroes and villains since then.

Most of the high level NPCs in the Realms are also not heroes. They aren't going to go risk their lives to save a city or keep a forest from being burned to the ground. Like most people in the real world, they might feel bad if a tragedy occurs, but they aren't going to lift a finger or risk their lives to stop it.

No one may be talking about “Ulder Ravengard, Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate and Marshal of the Flaming Fist” but that doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t cause issues for some parties because she needs to be at Trade Negotiations any time something needs to happen in Baldur’s Gate. And actually, even if she is, aren’t the Flaming Fist a pretty tough bunch? Why aren’t they helping clear the cemetery of the Undead scourge that is threatening the people? Or tracking down the vampire killings next month? Or dealing with the Werewolf reports that begin cropping up three months later? Or the Orc raids? Or the Zhent crime spree? How many threats can you craft plausible scenarios for? Most tables deal with dangerous threats every session, leading to multiple threats a week in some instances and we are supposed to believe the “tough and ready” guard force is absent or unable to deal with any of them? Oh, and lets not forget the Temples who also stand by and do nothing, despite the fact that a famous paladin makes his home there, or a former adventuring cleric. And the powerful sage wizard whose tower is in the center of the city. Or the well-known adventurers like Minsc who tend to make Baldur’s Gate a stopping point between their exploits. Or any of the former adventurers turned inn keepers or shop keeps or blacksmiths.

The Flaming Fist is a mercenary group with a lot of members. The vast majority would be low level and unable to handle major threats. The Marshal would likely be too busy to do it himself. His commanders would be needed to command the troops. He would very likely be the one getting some adventurers to take care of those issues. Commanders can't just drop their duties and take care of things personally without causing major problems.

 

[Mirtek]

The nice thing about the Gord books, was that it didn't matter whether they were canon. Gord wasn't powerful enough to impact what the PCs were doing. Since most adventuring happened below name level, that was totally appropriate -- he was just another adventurer.

Aren't those the novels that eventually have the likes of Nerull and Tharizdun playing major roles? Sounds pretty epic in scope

 

[Cyrinishad]

Only 8 more pages until we get too 100... Go Realms Go! Go Realms Go!

 

[hawkeyefan]

So I'm reading the Elminster books now (on the one in Hell), and he's not really stopping world-shattering events.

Making of a Mage - saves his little country.
In Myth Draenor - saves Myth Draenor, helps raise the mythal
Temptation - saves...someplace near Westgate. This one was kind of all over the place and things were unclear. At one point he takes over a country while the apprentice of an evil avatar of Mystra...
in Hell - saved Shadowdale at the beginning, apparently, which got him thrown into Avernus through a rift.

None of those sounds particularly Faerun-shattering (though I suppose the rift to Avernus could have been.

Cool, thanks! I had a rough idea of some of that, but never read the books. Sounds kind of like the story of a PC in a lot of ways....a slow steady progression of power and escalating risks and threats.

I've read a good number of the Drizzt novels, and they are similar. Drizzt never saves the world in the earlier novels....he usually is only saving himself and/or his friends. The original trilogy is very similar to a D7D campaign in my view....they do wind up saving Ten Towns at the end of the first book. Later they reclaim Bruenor's ancestral home from the drow. Things like that.

I don't know about some of the later novels.....but Drizzt's life within the fictional world has a very small scope. He's not known worldwide or anything like that. I actually thought that was one of the things that was handled really well....his reputation grows a bit over time, but still nothing out of line with what you'd expect.

I know Elminster is certainly more involved in the major Realms shake up type stories. I think most notably the Avatar Trilogy. But even in that, his role is really more of a support character. A big part of the plot is thatthe main characters are accused of killing Elminster when it appears he is killed. Of course, he turns out to be okay, and shows up later on, but still, the story is that of the main characters. I don;t know how the plot of the associated modules was....my bet is that he is used more forcefully in those, but I never read them.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I'm not this far in the Drizzt books, but I believe in the final trilogy linked to OotA, he saves Menzo from Demogorgon. That's about as world-saving as Drizzt gets. Yeah, he isn't well known outside of the Sword Coast, with a dingle foray down to Caradoon. Jarlaxle tries to pretend to be him out east and just gets uncomprehending stares.

I haven't read the Avatar Trilogy or modules, but from the criticisms I hear, your PC simply follows the characters of the novels around and aren't an active agent. This seems to be the only legit criticism of what people are complaining about that I know of. But then again, take it as you will since I haven't read them.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[Mercule]

Aren't those the novels that eventually have the likes of Nerull and Tharizdun playing major roles? Sounds pretty epic in scope

Dunno. I actually only read one or two of them. If so, then I guess I was wrong about the power level. Still, it clearly didn't matter whether they were canonical or not.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Without rules stating what they can do, they can't do it unless the DM creates a rule that they can. I've already acknowledged that house rules can allow gods to grant exp.

See but now you are taking your logic too far to the other extreme.

There are zero rules on what gods can do. Therefore gods can do nothing. No rule says a god can heal, bless, raise the dead. A cleric can, we have rules for that, but as far as the rules are concerned the gods are just battery packs.

There needs to be a happy medium obviously.

Heh. Maybe I'm just a different sort of player than you, but if I was in that situation, I'd have told that person, "I'm going to help you, and then I'm going to start investigating the guard for corruption. Too often I hear that they won't help those in need.", putting the DM on notice.

The rest of the party gets fed up with me sometimes though. They still poke fun at the fact I kept pushing us to return to the city to run our business and take care of the orphans we adopted instead of chasing some rumor about goblins in a forest over a month’s travel away from our base.

And, different game same group, now we are having issues because they decided to take the slow overland route to go rescue a friend instead of the faster route by magic or ship. One of them even commented on how they didn’t like the person anyways, so if they die before we get there its no big deal.

They very much seem to be a group of “if the DM suggests it, we should do it because that is the plot the DM has planned” even when that makes zero sense for the story.

See, that's another DM error. Not necessarily a bad DM, but a mistake in my opinion based on what little you've said. If you were going to be mercenaries going about doing things that the guard should do, he should have place you in Baldur's Gate where the Flaming Fist mercenary company is in charge of guarding the city, as well as it's other mercenary contracts. There would have been no conflict in play when you undertook guard like duties, and you would still have been able to go do other mercenary things.

But, for this to be a mistake, you have to assume our DM new those details. I will guarantee if I asked them about the Flaming Fist they will have no idea what I am talking about. They use the FR map and a few random details they remember, but they generally have no idea about the setting at all. I’m generally the one providing details like “Who is Sune?” or “What is a Shar?” This is why I tell people these games are not Forgotten Realms games, my DM grabbed the for FR because that is where DnD happens and other than that generally knows next to nothing about the setting.

I never said that. I said the exact details that make them different don't matter when it comes to overshadowing PCs or not. Raistlin can overshadow PCs or not, depending on how the DM chooses to run him. The same goes for Elminster and Mordenkainen. All of them can compete directly with the PCs. All of them can use minions. All of then can be off doing their own things and never come across the PCs at all. Their differences don't change any of that.
It would only be once and the PCs would be dead
The competition would have to be for a goal, not against one another. Which leads to another question. How often is enough to overshadow? Based on complaints here, it seems once is enough for some people.

Once now seems enough for some people because they had to deal with it multiple times before. To take the movie watching analogy you mentioned, they’ve seen the film 5 or 6 times already. They are already at their limit, so placing that character in a new game is enough to aggravate them.

And yes, their differences do change all of that, but we’re going to have to agree to disagree because making the point at this rate is going to involve a lot of research I don’t feel like doing.

Suffice to say, to return to comic analogies, to me you are saying Ras A’Ghul is the same as Dr. Doom is the same as Iron Man. All of them could compete or help the main character their differences don’t matter. Except Doom runs a country and has an army of robots, plus wants to conquer the world. Ras is the head of a shadow league of assassins that wants to kill the majority of humanity and Iron Man is a hero who saves the world.

But they totally could do the same things as each other.

No. I've played the Realms for decades and the number of high level NPCs is very high, but not that high. Marvel on the other hand has tremendous numbers of heroes. Back in the 80's the Marvel RPG put out a series of books with all the heroes and villains in it. It took up multiple thick volumes, and they've added even more heroes and villains since then.

Most of the high level NPCs in the Realms are also not heroes. They aren't going to go risk their lives to save a city or keep a forest from being burned to the ground. Like most people in the real world, they might feel bad if a tragedy occurs, but they aren't going to lift a finger or risk their lives to stop it.

Please note I keep saying the “Marvel Cinematic Universe”. I’m talking strictly the movies and possibly the TV shows (I haven’t seen the TV shows I’ll admit). Based solely off the movies, we’ve got around a dozen to 18 major characters. Especially since Fox still owns the rights to F4 and X-Men, meaning those don’t count. Obviously if I was talking all Marvel Products I’d be floundering, because I’d need to talk about 70 years worth of stuff.

And how do you figure most high level people aren’t going to do anything? If, under your logic, they needed to go adventuring or doing something similar to become high level then wouldn’t they have been heroes quite often? How are the Clerics and Paladins not helping the people and yet still following the will of Helm or Torm or whoever? Sure, they may not travel to the next town over to save that town, but the town they live in and serve they will surely act to protect. Even a selfish and self-absorbed wizard knows that letting the town he buys supplies in burn underneath his nose is just going to make his life harder in the future.

Cool, thanks! I had a rough idea of some of that, but never read the books. Sounds kind of like the story of a PC in a lot of ways....a slow steady progression of power and escalating risks and threats.

I've read a good number of the Drizzt novels, and they are similar. Drizzt never saves the world in the earlier novels....he usually is only saving himself and/or his friends. The original trilogy is very similar to a D7D campaign in my view....they do wind up saving Ten Towns at the end of the first book. Later they reclaim Bruenor's ancestral home from the drow. Things like that.

I don't know about some of the later novels.....but Drizzt's life within the fictional world has a very small scope. He's not known worldwide or anything like that. I actually thought that was one of the things that was handled really well....his reputation grows a bit over time, but still nothing out of line with what you'd expect.

I know Elminster is certainly more involved in the major Realms shake up type stories. I think most notably the Avatar Trilogy. But even in that, his role is really more of a support character. A big part of the plot is thatthe main characters are accused of killing Elminster when it appears he is killed. Of course, he turns out to be okay, and shows up later on, but still, the story is that of the main characters. I don;t know how the plot of the associated modules was....my bet is that he is used more forcefully in those, but I never read them.

One thing about the Driz'zt novels. I've only really read the original trilogy, and in book 1 Driz'zt kills an adult dragon and loots it's hoard, that's where he gets his iconic twin scimitars.

So, yeah, he's only saving towns and regions and stuff, but we start off with soloing a dragon in its lair, which even back in the day was something only a higher level character would live through. He may not get around very much, but his territory is a place where you know an incredibly powerful adventurer lives and patrols.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*