Why I dislike Milestone XP

[GameOgre]

Milestone Leveling is a time saver and gets the job done. There isn't a lot of doubt that it's become widely used especially in Adventure paths.

Even so I have a heavy dislike for it. See to me D&D is a role playing game and the PC's should have the freedom to play their characters however they want. This means that the DM shouldn't have preset notions and rewards for doing what the adventure requires.

If the pc's decide that Dragon flying over the town looks nasty and head the other way then they should have the freedom to do so.

Adventure paths in general are horrible for just that reason. The adventurers lives shouldn't be set and railroaded only on the path the DM sets before them. Also if you were going to build a adventure path and get player buy in why not actually make it work? Why not make the adventure actually contain the amount of XP needed to level instead of just a fraction of it? BAH!

My players love to track their xp and levels and feel a since of accomplishment with their characters when they earn a level up and are not simply given a level up because the adventure requires them to be higher.

Is it really all that hard to award xp? I'm amazed that DM's can build encounters and entire settings and yet balk at the simple task of awarding xp for monsters slain,role playing,creative thinking and good gaming.

Now I can understand it for new DM's since the adventure paths do not contain the necessary xp amounts and creating your own encounters is a skill you pick up over time. So I understand their milestone leveling but im amazed that long time DM's do it.

One of my player tells me player freedom is simply gone from the game in favor of the amusement park get on here and get off over there style of of play and while it might be more rare surely there are a lot of DM's out there like me that don't run there games that way.

Right?

 

[jaelis]

I don't really understand the conflict here. If the PCs decide to hare off and do something else, you can let them, and then you can provide milestone rewards for whatever they do achieve.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Eh.

We stopped bothering with XP years ago. Instead, we play, events unfold, organically and/or guided, depending on the setting and campaign.

Then we level up when we fancy knocking it up a notch.

On a more practical level, it also helps when folks miss sessions. Not having xp tracked with such granularity means folks going on holiday or missing a session due to whatever reason can hop back in as and when. Sure, some might argue that their character hasn't 'earnt' the experience but really? We don't care - the ease of playing with our fellows as and when is paramount. Besides, we can cook up some story as to where and how an absent character gained their experience, if needs.

So, aye, if folks are only getting experience for certain actions then sure, such a system of experience awarding could constrain freedom. And if an adventure requires players to be X level before they can continue, this compounds the problem. But then again, I also think such a system is somewhat dated anyway.

Of course, each to their own, as long as folks are having fun.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

I don't really understand the conflict here. If the PCs decide to hare off and do something else, you can let them, and then you can provide milestone rewards for whatever they do achieve.

Yeah, to be honest, a bit confused as to the problem as outlined in the OP o-o

Experience - give it if you need to. Else, don't. Or like, ya know? Forget about it and just bump levels as and when.

Now if folks love tracking experience then... let them? Unless its blinding babies and causing droughts..

I think, and please correct me OP if I'm off here, that the problem is a lack of the feeling of accomplishment because, and this seems to be an assumption of playstyle on the OP's part, the understanding is that at A point in an adventure, players will automatically bumped to Level X. Then, based on this understanding, players could theoretically burn through content/hurtle down the 'adventure path' in order to reach the next checkpoint. The 'problem' being that what they do doesn't matter - they'll get the level boost when they hit the checkpoint. The consequence of such a play style being that little is 'earnt' through play decisions, rather it is given for reaching point A, regardless.

If this is the 'problem', as it were, the I'd say it was one of adventure design. Tho consider, we don't play any pre-scripted adventures at our table, so maybe its symptomatic of their style/design? If so, then... the obvious answer would be, change the design. Or crack on after the checkpoint and simply don't let the players level if they insist on skipping content/burning ahead.

..

Ack. Really... confuzzled.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I use milestone xp, although I’ve been doing it longer than that term has existed.

For newer DMs, I think it’s very clear how it may be a good idea. It’s less to track and it allows the DM some control over the pacing of the game. And it works for the adventure books that WotC is aelling.

For me though, it’s about other things. XP isn’t all that difficult to track...but I do find it tedious. I also don’t see it as any more meaningful. The progression in our campaign is actually a lot slower than it would be with XP. So I have no concern about my PCs not having “earned” a new level. I’m using a good amount of the published material for 5E, but not exactly in the way intended. So the fact that the published adventures use a more milestone based method makes it easier for me to adapt that material as needed.

 

[iserith]

Milestone Leveling is a time saver and gets the job done. There isn't a lot of doubt that it's become widely used especially in Adventure paths.

Even so I have a heavy dislike for it. See to me D&D is a role playing game and the PC's should have the freedom to play their characters however they want. This means that the DM shouldn't have preset notions and rewards for doing what the adventure requires.

If the pc's decide that Dragon flying over the town looks nasty and head the other way then they should have the freedom to do so.

Adventure paths in general are horrible for just that reason. The adventurers lives shouldn't be set and railroaded only on the path the DM sets before them. Also if you were going to build a adventure path and get player buy in why not actually make it work? Why not make the adventure actually contain the amount of XP needed to level instead of just a fraction of it? BAH!

My players love to track their xp and levels and feel a since of accomplishment with their characters when they earn a level up and are not simply given a level up because the adventure requires them to be higher.

Is it really all that hard to award xp? I'm amazed that DM's can build encounters and entire settings and yet balk at the simple task of awarding xp for monsters slain,role playing,creative thinking and good gaming.

Now I can understand it for new DM's since the adventure paths do not contain the necessary xp amounts and creating your own encounters is a skill you pick up over time. So I understand their milestone leveling but im amazed that long time DM's do it.

One of my player tells me player freedom is simply gone from the game in favor of the amusement park get on here and get off over there style of of play and while it might be more rare surely there are a lot of DM's out there like me that don't run there games that way.

Right?

Milestone advancement uses XP. You may be referring to story-based or session-based advancement. See DMG page 261.

An adventure path is not a railroad so long as the players know the adventure is on the path and nowhere else and have bought into that conceit. At that point, the DM is no longer coercing or subverting their choices because they have agreed to follow the path. Milestone or story-based advancement can then be used to reward players for sticking to that path. If they go off the path, they are no longer adhering to their agreement and receive no reward.

Whether or not you like adventure paths is a separate issue. But that's why an adventure path benefits from milestone or story-based advancement design-wise, even if the designers for some inexplicable reason reportedly get the XP amounts all wrong. It's not really about DMs finding it difficult to award XP in their games - it's about which XP method best incentivizes the kind of game play the DM wants for the play experience.

 

[Mercule]

I started using milestone XP when we were going through PotA.

My group is pretty darn good at guerrilla tactics and the "hit and run". We were all having fun, but it made things feel really empty if I didn't restock and strained suspension of disbelief, as well. If I did allow the cults to slowly recruit, I noticed the PCs started sliding ahead and things turned into a cake walk because the published module made certain assumptions. I'm also opposed to the "clean it out and get all the XPs" mentality or screwing players if they come up with a clever way to make it through, say, the water temple without actually having to engage everything (leaving them behind the curve, now).

Thus, I eventually just said: Hey, you beat a "level", so have a level. I did so mainly because I wanted the PCs to be able to do what they wanted to do.

We used milestones for a similar reason in CoS.

Moving to a home brew game, we're using it, as well, but the milestones are defined by the PCs (implicitly -- I don't make the players go through an annual review type process for their PCs). If the group meanders aimlessly, then they won't advance very fast, but that seems perfectly reasonable, to me. Conversely, a focused and productive group should be able to sail through the levels.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Fanaelialae]

We use milestone XP in one group. I don't mind it. It's simple and the players role play their characters regardless.

My other group balked at the idea of using milestones whenever I've proposed it. They love gaining XP; the feeling of steady progression. For them, I came up with a new, simplified system, since I was tired of pulling out the calculator after every combat.

The amount of XP required to gain a level is equal to your current level * 100. So, 100 XP to reach level 2, 200 more XP to reach level 3, 300 more XP to reach level 4, and so forth.

The reason for this (as opposed to a flat 100 per level, which I considered) is that if a level disparity develops, it allows the lower level character to catch up (because an XP gap of 100 means much less at level 10 than it does at level 2).

I reward XP for combat, social, and exploration accomplishments. Combat is self explanatory. Social refers to encounters where characters talk their way through an encounter (convincing an orc warchief to let them pass through the orc tribe's caves to get to whever they're going). Exploration is discovering and overcoming non-combat challenges that advance the adventure (locating the entrance to a dungeon, subverting a dangerous trap, and so on).

The reward is on a scale of 1-10, based on the difficulty, multiplied by the level of the encounter, capped at the party's level + 3.

I also added a rolling bonus to combats in order to encourage the players to push themselves. The rolling bonus increases by 1 for an easy encounter, 2 for a moderate encounter, and 3 for a difficult encounter. Short rests reduce the rolling bonus by 1, while long rests reset it to 0. After the encounter difficulty is determined, the rolling bonus is added to it before multiplying by the level of the encounter.

I also award end game XP, which accounts for good role playing and such. That award is 1 to 5 times 5 times the party level (I like end game to be a sizable chunk of total XP earned).

Ultimately, what this means is that if the players are undertaking level appropriate challenges, that the rating of the encounter is the percentage of advancement it bestows. So a challenge rating of 1 is 1% of a level, while a 10 is 10% of a level.

There are some circumstances where I rate encounters well below the party level. For example, seeking out a quest giver in the safety of the town is considered a level 1 challenge, meaning that at higher levels it's worth a fraction of a percent (but it's still something).

My players have responded well to it. They enjoy the regular influx of XP. They especially like the rolling bonus, since it gives them an incentive to push on when they might otherwise rest.

I've only used if for a few sessions so far, so I'm not certain the numbers are precisely as I'd like them, but I'm happy with it overall. The goal is to have them leveling somewhere around every other session.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Milestone XP and railroad adventure paths are both the spawn of Hextor. I fart in their general direction. I will give out Quest XP depending on what it is. But in my upcoming S&W game you bet we will be tracking each rat slain and gold piece pilfered.