D&D General Barrowmaze, Stonehell, Arden Vul, Rappan Athuk and other Megadungeons

[DarkCrisis]

I'm always thinking of games I'd like to run before I die and I hope to convince my group to, at some point, try a Megadungeon.

The 4 in the title that caught my eye as I was surfing the web (to us an outdated term)

What's been mostly on my mind is "What system do I want to run it in?" I know Barrow and Rappan each have 5E versions but some reviews I read say that the issues of 5E carry over. In such that the characters are Superheroes as opposed to Heroes and thus the dungeons, while still lethal, are less so. I'm curious how one handles leveling as well because 5E is fairly rapid unless the DM is just denying them levels until he feels its warranted and how does that even work in a Megadungeon? Any thoughts on 5E in an actual Megadungeon?

So. I figure best to keep it OSR. Castles and Crusades? Seems better suited for running D&D3/3.5 stuff. Shadowdark? Due it's XP/money system would require the DM to do a lot of converting. Which makes me sad because I love the system but don't want to spend time figuring out a money conversion rate while wondering if the team is getting the right amount of XP etc Tried that for a 2E adventure and ugh.

Okay so what do I own? OSRIC? It's just 1E cleaned up but does it really simplify anything? Basic Fantasy? Well, my options being what they are seems about right. Sound good?

Any thoughts on the dungeons? Barrow and Stone are apparently good for first attempt Megadungeons while Arden and Rappan require the DM to really put in effort. Thoughts?

 

[Retreater]

I've run quite a bit of Barrowmaze (in 5e). It wasn't deadly - like at all. I ran it for my wife and her brother on Roll20 during the pandemic. Each of them had 2 characters and I had an NPC healbot (so 5 characters). I did gold for XP in 5e, and it kept a good pace. But again, it was very easy. I think we got halfway through it - maybe one character death. It's pretty straightforward with no changes in elevation, no levels, no slides, teleports, meaningful secret doors, etc. I'd say that a party who makes a decent attempt to remember what they've done has zero chance of getting lost in the dungeon. Pretty bland too. Just a bunch of undead combat rooms, nothing that really stands out as especially memorable.

I ran a couple levels of Rappan Athuk in 3.x and then a few sessions in 5e. It's ... I guess I'd describe it as "ornate?" It's very labyrinthine and has a lot of diversity in the challenges. Depending on the version you get, it might be a little bloated, disjointed (as it was written by a pretty massive team over decades). I don't think it's good for a campaign, though. Like, go in for quests, short bursts. It just doesn't fit what I'd want for a campaign dungeon. Not enough factions, roleplaying potential, etc.

Arden Vul I've flipped through briefly. It's certainly big.

I haven't looked at Stonehell.

For me, I think something can be 5 levels and be a megadungeon. You don't need a 500 page book to be a megadungeon. The Lost City, Caverns of Thracia, etc., are better for campaign dungeons. And if you're looking at old school play, I think something that size can last many months.

 

[pukunui]

I've been enjoying running Dungeon of the Mad Mage for one of my groups. It's pretty old school. Lots of empty rooms you can populate yourself. Various factions you can interact with and play off each other. Interesting NPCs to find and talk to. A god-like 'dungeon master' you can use to screw with the party. And there's lots of variety between floors.

It's very good for a beer and pretzels, kick in the door, kill the monsters and take their stuff type of game. And I would say that it's got plenty of danger and challenge. The drow on level 3 TPKed the party, for instance. Had to roll up a whole new party to continue. Since then, we've lost a PC here and there. The githyanki nearly TPKed the party but they managed to escape.

I've included a rival adventuring party that does "clean up" duty for the PCs when they fail to complete a particular objective. They hate the rivals for the kill-stealing and credit-taking.

I have done things like take the training wheels off (the "you must be this level to pass through this portal" stuff), and it's been a blast. My players are loving it.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I’m running a weekly online Barrowmaze using Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy which is working out nicely for us. The OSE rules are easy to manage and Barrowmaze gives a revisitable arena with enough plot hooks to pick up and take further if tugged or they can just take out the day’s tension on the dungeon. The town of Helix is not too far away and provides a (mostly) safe haven with everything an aspiring tomb raider could want.

One of the attractions for me is it’s easy to put down and pick up again later if the players fancy a change. They can run off and complete a more goal oriented adventure then return back to the labyrinth below without any real complications.

So far we’ve got to 18 sessions and everyone’s having a good time, even after two character fatalities. Just roll up some new ones and don’t worry too much about how they got there.

So far, so good.

 

[Voadam]

Castles and Crusades? Seems better suited for running D&D3/3.5 stuff.

There is a 3.0, and a 3.5 and a Pathfinder version of Rappan Athuk. Rappan Athuk Reloaded is the complete all in one 3.5 version I believe.

My impression though is that C&C works fine for converting OSR type stuff too.

 

[Voadam]

I'm curious how one handles leveling as well because 5E is fairly rapid unless the DM is just denying them levels until he feels its warranted and how does that even work in a Megadungeon?

This seems fairly straightforward.

Every X adventures the party advances a level. X = matter of taste. You want an old school slow advancement rate, make it something like once every 10 games. Want it quick to start but slows with mixed level parties? One game per character level needed to advance a level.

 

[greymist]

I’m currently playing in a play-by-post Barrowmaze game using Labyrinth Lord Advanced. It’s been vey enjoyable, although a lot of that is based on the DM and the other players (and due to the PBP format, the roleplaying is superb).

We have been exploring the large dungeon, as opposed to the many small barrows. So far, it has been a single level, but seems to be very expansive. As expected, it is an undead buffet with several powerful beings to boot. For the most part the party journeys from Helix with a wagon and a bunch of henchmen, some stay to guard the camp, the others join the PCs in the dungeon. We last 2 to 3 days before returning to Helix (usually because we have unleashed another unholy terror).

I suppose it would work with 5E but the whole rest issue always seems to a problem, perhaps not insurmountable if you use the official gritty rules or one of the many home brews.

I also played in a PBP Arden Vul game using OSRIC, which I believe is the system it was designed for. We visited 2 or 3 levels before the game ended, but I can say this is an amazing product. Various groups control parts of the dungeon and it is possible to negotiate truces instead of killing everything. It is very old-school in that the party can easily find themselves in situations way over their head.

The biggest problem I see with AV is that it would likely take years of play to hope to complete the campaign. So choosing it for a 6-month run would not do it justice. Also, the massive dungeon is interconnected to the surrounding area, history, and backstory of the setting. So dropping it into an existing world would be difficult.

Using 5E might be more difficult as the entire campaign (I think it is 8+ books) may have to be converted. And the whole 5E trope of casting Leomund’s Tiny Hut and getting a long rest in the middle of the dungeon would really ruin the experience, IMO.

 

[Mistwell]

We've been running through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, with Waterdeep above, for about 2.5 years now. And while the DM is making changes, and I think purchased some third party enhancements to it, it's pretty darn good.

 

[SableWyvern]

I have played only a little of Stonehell, but read through it. It's one of those minimalist dungeons that needs the GM to have a really strong sense of what the dungeon is to them, and if they can then put their spin on it, it should be an awesome dungeon. To me, it's a very dark, horrific, reality twisting place with a lurking and insidious evil that is reaching out to infect the outer world. I managed to scare a PC in my current game away from ever going near the place just based on an interaction with an NPC who had been there.

I've been running Dwimmermount for the past couple of years, and it has great in-built flavour, lore and secrets, but the levels are individually a bit too small to really count or work as a megadungeon for me. Not enough space for factions to move and grow, or for rival parties to explore.

As far as rules go, any A&D, B/X, OD&D or BECMI-based ruleset that you like should do the job.

 

[Ancalagon]

The dungeon I've enjoyed the most as a DM, by far, is the Gates of Firestorm Peak.

But it's not really a megadungeon. "Kilodungeon" is how I like to call it. There are 125 ish rooms, and several "zones" - it's not all the same, there are factions, combat can be vicious but often (not always!) can be avoided with roleplay or stealth. It's a 2e adventure, but I found it fairly easy to convert to 5e. It does make it a bit less lethal, since 2e still had some "save or die" effects.

In my experience, mega dungeons drag after a while. But when I ran this one I started at level 5 (the little quest/adventure to get to the dungeon, where some lore is picked up), level 6 (the bulk of the dungeon) and level 7 (the final area). I've done it twice already, and would love doing it with another group I'm involved with.

So yes, "big" dungeons can work, but there is a side that is too big.