Why I dislike Milestone XP

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I've done this with our 4 player Curse of Strahd campaign. If only 3 players can make it, we still play and the 4th PC is along for the ride as an NPC with one of the other players handling the rolls. All players level at the same pace (and I am using XP - and not just for killing things - rather than milestones).

OTOH, for our 8 player homebrew campaign, we have set it up from the start that if a player can't make it, the PC is doing something mundane like guarding the camp or foraging or whatever makes sense until the player can rejoin. It just works - no one gets bent or feels punished that their character didn't "earn" XP while they weren't actually playing that night. The varied PC levels at the table are fine and no one is competitive about it - it's a cooperative party and everyone is glad for the contributions that each other can make. If a PC should die, the player can roll up a character at 2 levels lower than current.

So yeah, I've experienced that different methods for different tables can still be fun.

I'm going to be starting up a 6 player S&W Rappan Athuk campaign next month and I'll probably do something similar, though PC's are so simple in that editions its no real effort to run 2.

 

[Dausuul]

My entire post poking fun at you went right over your head.

Looks like it went over a lot of heads. Mine included.

If you had some kind of humorous intent there, you might want to work on your comedy skills. And brush up on Poe's Law.

 

[GameOgre]

Looks like it went over a lot of heads. Mine included.

If you had some kind of humorous intent there, you might want to work on your comedy skills. And brush up on Poe's Law.

When someone in their post says things like

This automatically defeats any arguments against "milestone advancement" as far as I'm concerned. Full stop, debate is over.

in a thread about why someone else hates something and asking other DM's if others dislike it as well and seeking others who feel the same, you don't think that comes across as hilarious? He automatically defeats all arguments! I mean he said so! If someone says so it must be true! That is why I said the things in my post to show how funny it was,

Also as far as I could tell no one said

Telling me it is "forced", or "lazy" or "contrived" or whatever doesn't change anything other than my opinion of you.

to him at all. It would be like me claiming "Anyone who says they cant so simple math and award xp by monsters slain and role playing is being dishonest"

See nobody said that. I'm putting words into other peoples mouths and then making comments on them!

I thought my post was pretty obviously poking fun since he didn't actually state anything I said he did.

Here I will add a

 

[Caliban]

Also as far as I could tell no one said
to him at all. It would be like me claiming "Anyone who says they cant so simple math and award xp by monsters slain and role playing is being dishonest"

Except for this, of course:

I dislike milestone xp, it feels like a bit of a lazy cop out, often used to compensate for poor adventure design.

Reading is Fundamental!

They didn't say it directly to me, but was actually said - and similar sentiments have been expressed by other posters. I was responding to those general comments with my own comment. Kind of like this was a forum where people respond to comments made by other people.

See nobody said that. I'm putting words into other peoples mouths and then making comments on them!

... I thought my post was pretty obviously poking fun since he didn't actually state anything I said he did.

Here I will add a

Ah, so you were flat out lying. You're right, that smiley face makes it all better.

 

[Shasarak]

For me personally, when I'm the DM running my own campaign, I don't use XP. I've experienced exactly zero problems as a result, and for me gained a huge benefit - I don't spend any of my valuable time on an activity that I consider kind of pointless. This automatically defeats any arguments against "milestone advancement" as far as I'm concerned. Full stop, debate is over. Telling me it is "forced", or "lazy" or "contrived" or whatever doesn't change anything other than my opinion of you.

Of course you have experienced no problems when you are the DM. DMs are not the point of XP.

 

[Oofta]

Of course you have experienced no problems when you are the DM. DMs are not the point of XP.

For what it's worth, I've never experienced a problem whether I'm a player or DM. I prefer milestone advancement when I play because I never have to pause and think "Am I going to lose out on XP because I'm doing what my character would do?"

The other thing that bugs me is the really fun RP session that means you get effectively penalized for doing something other than being a murder hobo which is something I hit recently in an AL game.

The main issue I have with this thread is the general tone of some XP advocates saying that people are "lazy" or "what's the point" simply because different people have different goals and expectations while valuing different aspects of the game.

 

[Caliban]

Players aren't the point of XP. Even characters aren't the point of XP. XP in and of itself should not be the goal. (In my opinion. YMMV.)

XP is simply a method of tracking character advancement. It's a tool for the DM to use, or not use, as they choose.

If some players see XP as a kind of Pavlovian reward mechanism to the point that it becomes the only reason to play the game...well, that's not the type of game I want to run.

If that's the type game you like to play, then you should absolutely use XP.

 

[5ekyu]

Then I, the DM, pick new milestones depending on what your PC is currently trying to accomplish. You don't have to chase the goals I create for you; you can chase any goal you like, and you'll be rewarded for progress toward it. What matters is that you have a goal within the game world.

It's the same as any other XP award system: Reward the behavior you want to see from the players. "XP for kills" rewards players who seek out combat, and punishes players who avoid fights. "XP for gold" rewards players who look for opportunities to get rich, and punishes players who don't care about plunder. "XP (or levels) for milestones" rewards players who set goals and try to accomplish them, and punishes players who bumble around doing random stuff.

And so a character say like a whimsical cleric of the jester god of trickery... needs a to set a goal (or goals) to advance in your games?

Understand, i am not in disagreement with you... however... part of the reason i stopped with the "chapter" or "gaol" driven Xp was to allow for players who have characters who are fun to play and not planners, not "heading towards this thing" but actually just out and about and seeing where the wind carries them. their bumbling around is a great vehicle for lots of fun and enjoyment for many games i have seen.

It is my experience that *some* players like "backgrounded" characters, where the now and tomorrow is hinged on and drives them towards/away elements from their past. their "story" starts in media res.

it is also my experience that *some* players enjoy or prefer what i call "frontgrounded" characters where their past is mostly not all that interesting and the player hopes to see the character get into a story ahead of them. Their "story" starts now, as the campaign starts.

Both of those can be great (or horrible) as can lots of the area between.

So, long while back, i stopped lasering in "advancement is tied to goals and objectives" and doubled down on letting the enticements for actions and choices stay and be highlighted in the game world itself.

help show them reasons to want to stop the goblins or benefits that can come from it or even gains to be had from helping the goblins. then let them choose based on that... not "what gives me xp.

Works for me at least. my players seem to have liked it.

Can be simple too... take every second you would spend on running xp numbers and turn it into seconds thinking about and adding in signs of neat and cool stuff that will be consequences of choices.

 

[Shasarak]

The other thing that bugs me is the really fun RP session that means you get effectively penalized for doing something other than being a murder hobo which is something I hit recently in an AL game.

I dont really get it. You say you had a really fun RP session but you feel penalized? Is the fun not the whole point of Roleplaying?

 

[Bradley Hindman]

And so a character say like a whimsical cleric of the jester god of trickery... needs a to set a goal (or goals) to advance in your games?

Understand, i am not in disagreement with you... however... part of the reason i stopped with the "chapter" or "gaol" driven Xp was to allow for players who have characters who are fun to play and not planners, not "heading towards this thing" but actually just out and about and seeing where the wind carries them. their bumbling around is a great vehicle for lots of fun and enjoyment for many games i have seen.

You have just described one the major archetypes in Westerns, the drifter. And I agree, they are fun to play. It's also true that such characters may not have an overarching, long-term goal. But, you can't say that they don't have short-term goals. They must. Otherwise they would never strive for anything, and what is the fun in that. "Chapters" in your collective story can be big or little depending on the type of game you are playing.