Why I Dislike the term Railroading

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Personally, I consider the term [railroading] to mean something at least kinda-sorta objective

RC, you've argued with me previously that "chair" has no objective meaning. How can you possibly have one for "railroading," even kinda-sorta?

 

[ExploderWizard]

We're going in circles, here, and I'm not even sure that we're speaking the same language at this point. I've explained exactly what I was saying in earlier posts, but I don't know that we can have a productive or even entertaining conversation with each other on this topic.

-O

Perhaps we can define linear adventure on it's own terms since they seem to be considered separate from railroads. Can we get an example of a linear, non-railroad adventure? If we can see one then maybe we can pinpoint that quality which excludes it from being a railroad.

Players not minding it isn't really any sort of distinction within the adventure itself. I could announce to my players that next session, they WILL be heading to the plaza of naughty delights wherein they will gamble away a third of their gold. Free booze and strippers will be present at the session to add to the atmosphere.

I doubt that I would have any complaints but that that wouldn't make it any less of a railroad.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Railroad: Players have little to no control over the character's destiny, little to no affect over the outcome of the pace of events.

Linear Plotline: Event will occur regardless of character's action or inaction, however the Player's still control the characters actions and behavoir. Events may be altered by the character's actions, or not, depending on the competence and resources of the characters.

Simple enough?

I'm still struggling with the distinction you're trying to draw. Lemme take a stab at it and you can tell me if I'm right:

In a linear design, the sequence of events is pre-determined: The PCs need to face the evil vizier, then they need to travel to Sunburst Vale, and then they need to deal with the Aithar Ghosts.

A railroad is a linear design in which the outcome of each event is also pre-determined: The PCs will face the evil vizier and the evil vizier will escape no matter what; then they will travel to Sunburst Vale and the bad guys will always get there just before they do; and then they will need to deal with the Aithar Ghosts by saving the Aithar's spirit totem and forming an alliance with the chieftain's daughter.

Is that the distinction you're trying to draw?

If so, I can see the utility of drawing that distinction. But, at the same time, I see it as merely being a different of degree, not of kind.

Allow me to quote myself from another thread:

Railroading happens when the GM negates the choice made by a player in order to enforce a pre-conceived path through the adventure.

There are two main methods of achieving railroading:

(1) Enforcing Failure. ("I use my spell to drill through the wall [that I'm not supposed to get through]." "It doesn't work [because you're not supposed to get through it].")

(2) False Choice. ("I go left." "You enter the Vampire's Lair." [REWIND] "I go right." "You enter the Vampire's Lair.")

The key here is the motive. If the PCs try to negotiate a peace treaty with Godzilla or beat through an adamantium door with a fluffy pillow, the fact that they have no chance of success is not railroading. That's just the nature of the scenario.

More generally, railroading can be done elegantly (in which case the players may not be aware that they're being railroaded) or it can be done crudely (in which case the GM's machinations are clear).

But whether it's done elegantly or crudely, it still has a very real and meaningful impact on the game. Whether that impact is positive or negative will depend on (a) what people want and (b) whether the railroad is giving it to them. (And, in many cases, the process of railroading itself is antithetical to "what people want".)

 

[Reynard]

Perhaps we can define linear adventure on it's own terms since they seem to be considered separate from railroads. Can we get an example of a linear, non-railroad adventure? If we can see one then maybe we can pinpoint that quality which excludes it from being a railroad.

I'll give it a go.

Linear, not necessarily a railroad: The dungeon known as the Hellstair is a winding but branchless series of passages descending into the earth, and at the bottom there is a mystical Watzit. Said Watzit has magic powers and is probably worth a lot of gold.

Linear, and also a railroad: When the GM starts the session, he says the PCs have been infected with a virulent disease that only the mystical Watzit can heal, but only within the space of 3 days, or else the PCs all die horrible, painful deaths and can never be raised.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, you've argued with me previously that "chair" has no objective meaning. How can you possibly have one for "railroading," even kinda-sorta?

Terms are always nebulous. That this is so limits their value, but doesn't make them valueless.

If the term "chair" has no objective meaning, neither is its meaning entirely subjective.

When one argues that a term is useless unless it can be pinned down, one is going to discover that no term can, in fact, be pinned down. The usefulness of terms is not, when all is said and done, based upon our ability to agree concretely upon their meaning. Or, if it is, then all terms are useless.

Hence the "kinda-sorta".

Tell me that a term is too vague to be of use, when I and many others obviously find it to be useful, and I am going to point out that vagueness is endemic in language.

Tell me that a term has no meaning whatsoever, and I am going to point out that terminology has meaning beyond that which is merely subjective.

Philosophies that claim that everything is subjective, or that things can be objectively known, miss the mark, IMHO. The limits to objective knowledge do not require everything to be therefore completely subjective. Nor does our subjective impression somehow destroy objective reality.

There is a median ground between "objective" and "subjective". That median ground where we all live. IMHO, it is about time that we get used to living there, because it isn't going to change.

Again, IMHO. YMMV.



RC

 

[Ariosto]

I'm only asking hat you accept that others have a less stringent view of what
= a railroad.

Just how have I "not accepted" that???

I've got no trouble at all with less stringent views! If someone wants to call something 'railroading' that I don't, then that's his beeswax.

I've got a little irritation from the loonies going out of their way to tell me I'm not allowed to call something 'railroading' because they happen to like it.

Let them like it, it's no nevermind to me. I'm not doing a darned thing to interfere with them, and they can call it whatever they want even if it just sounds like phony baloney gibberish to me.

But it's still 'railroading' to me, and to anyone with whom there's likely to be any really practical necessity for knowing what that means.

What next? Are you "just going to ask" me whether I've stopped beating my wife?

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'll give it a go.

Linear, not necessarily a railroad: The dungeon known as the Hellstair is a winding but branchless series of passages descending into the earth, and at the bottom there is a mystical Watzit. Said Watzit has magic powers and is probably worth a lot of gold.

So what is linear here apart from a physical channel? By common definition this isn't even an adventure it is merely a treasure stocked single room.

Linear, and also a railroad: When the GM starts the session, he says the PCs have been infected with a virulent disease that only the mystical Watzit can heal, but only within the space of 3 days, or else the PCs all die horrible, painful deaths and can never be raised.

Finallly we have a scenario. If the mystical disease were inserted without context or explanation into an ongoing game it would be quite rude as well as being a railroad.

Any linear non-railroad actual adventures out there?

 

[Remathilis]

Perhaps we can define linear adventure on it's own terms since they seem to be considered separate from railroads. Can we get an example of a linear, non-railroad adventure? If we can see one then maybe we can pinpoint that quality which excludes it from being a railroad
.

Evil cultists are using the power of Orcus to blot out the sun. You have 24 hours to save the world.

You have a deadline, and if you fail to accept the hook, bad things will happen to you. HOWEVER, you have full freedom to figure out a way to do it; find a powerful spell, discover an ancient relic, make a deal with a powerful entity, or just kick cultist ass until there isn't enough of them left to cast the ritual. (In theory, you could join them as well, but that's pretty much a game over scenario too).

Addendum: The relic is always found in the Labyrinth of Ut-At-Ra, the spell is always lost in the vault of Prazzam, the Red Dragon, and the cult's ritual is always being held at the Free City and happens at Midnight.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I could announce to my players that next session, they WILL be heading to the plaza of naughty delights wherein they will gamble away a third of their gold. Free booze and strippers will be present at the session to add to the atmosphere.

I doubt that I would have any complaints but that that wouldn't make it any less of a railroad.

I agree.

I would say, however, that if you said you would like the players to do so, and they agreed, it would not be a railroad, even if they agreed to allow you to start the next session already at the gates of the plaza.


RC

 

[Scribble]

A railroad is a linear design in which the outcome of each event is also pre-determined: The PCs will face the evil vizier and the evil vizier will escape no matter what; then they will travel to Sunburst Vale and the bad guys will always get there just before they do; and then they will need to deal with the Aithar Ghosts by saving the Aithar's spirit totem and forming an alliance with the chieftain's daughter.

I think for the most part I would call this a railroad yes.

Which is why I say it's really only a railroad when the DM is willfully removing the ability of the player to change a situation they should be able to, and are actively trying to, change.

In the case of the enemy getting there first:

If the PCs have done nothing to try to prevent them from getting there first, then simply writing "the enemy gets there first" in the adventure wouldn't be a railroad.

It would BECOME a railroad though if the players actively try to prevent that scenario, but the DM simply decides none of what they do has any effect purely to force the enemy getting there first.