Why I Don't Like 3.5 Damage Resistance

[Brother MacLaren]

A very finely constructed argument, which would hold water were it not for a few things...

In the werewolf legends you want to recreate, the werewolf was also not brought down by low level mage spells which were able to bypass his tremendous invulnerability like knifes thru butter either.

No, in one of the stories I'm thinking of, a werewolf got blasted apart by dynamite (not magic but close enough), regenerated his parts back together, shrugged it off, and was then killed by a silver bullet. Whereupon the werewolf slayer noted "There's only one way to kill a werewolf." Not a legend, not even a very good movie, but a fun scene.

So, to enable those rare Greater Werewolves to get past these cheap-and-easy attempts, you give them regeneration and stipulate that only silver deals normal damage, similar (but in lesser degree) to that possessed by pit fiends. Regeneration is one case well-established in D&D where magic does not trump all else.

Anyway, enhancement bonuses on a magic weapon are not the same thing as directed spells. Enhancement bonuses are not subject to SR. Your point about how much better than everything else Magic Missile is should be a topic for another rant, but it's one I've done before.

 

[LurkerFreak]

My only question is what does the 3.0 weapon property True Striking do in 3.5? My +1 True striking sword emulates the nescessary components required to hit any creature short of DR x/Epic? I dont think so.

 

[Sammael]

3.5. sure striking bypasses alignment-based DR only.

 

[ptolemy18]

No, in one of the stories I'm thinking of, a werewolf got blasted apart by dynamite (not magic but close enough), regenerated his parts back together, shrugged it off, and was then killed by a silver bullet. Whereupon the werewolf slayer noted "There's only one way to kill a werewolf." Not a legend, not even a very good movie, but a fun scene.

Ehhhg. I've always hated that interpretation of werewolves' silver-vulnerability. I prefer horror movies where sheer force -- like, say, nuclear explosions -- trumps some dumb ol' thing like silver. Grinding vampires up in a meat grinder and spreading them around seems like it would be as good as using a wooden stake. Similarly, chopping up a demon with a +5 sword seems like it would be as good as hitting it with some dumb ol' "holy silver" (besides, what if you're playing a bad guy who doesn't *want* to carry "holy" silver? That's as bad as this stupid thing in 3.5 where demons can't hurt devils effectively!!)

The way 3.0 and all earlier editions of D&D did it was... higher-plus magic weapons are like successive "steps" into the "big leagues." If you have a +1 magic weapon (or are a monster who has +1/10 DR), you are on a Different Level than someone who doesn't have one. If you have a +2 magic weapon, you are on a Different Level from someone who just has a not-good-enough +1 magic weapon. And so on up the line. If you don't have a good enough magic weapon... you'd better go on a quest to get the weapon before you can fight the monster!! The quest for better and better magic weapons is something that the DM can work into their game, not some obsessive thing that destroys campaigns ("Oh no, the players got hold of a +5 sword, the campaign is doomed! Sob!" :/ -- ?? I can't imagine this happening...)

I think this is a cool system. I can appreciate giving something like adamantine its own special qualities -- penetrating the hardness of inanimate objects, for instance -- but I have to say that I think high "+" magic weapons should trump EVERYTHING! That's what makes them cool. That's what worked in 3.0. And this is my final word on the beauties of 3.0 +x/x DR, for the moment anyway.

Jason

P.S. About the game-rules fact that it's possible to "upgrade" magic weapons... well, depending on the campaign, perhaps upgrading them requires smelting them down into their component parts and re-forging them from the same base metal. Or maybe the crafter just has to infuse some more weird magic stuff into the weapon. Who knows....

 

[ptolemy18]

Once upon a time, the only meaningful differentiation of D&D weapons was the '+''ness of it (or lack thereof). so, of course, we placed great store on having as big a plus weapon as possible. In D&D3.5 it now really means something to have weapons made of different materials, as well as having them magically enhanced. I can't help thinking that part of some people's discomfort with the revided DR rules is that they are still caught up with the notion that the pluses are the only important part of defining a weapon.

Ah yes, but 3.0 already did away with this notion! All the other magical effects which "cost" the same amount as old-fashioned "pluses" give players a lot of choices when selecting magic weapons. A "+1 shocking frost longsword" is very different from a "+3 longsword", and I can easily see some players picking the former....

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

Here's how I would've handled the whole alchemical silver/holy silver/cold iron situation: I would've modified the definition of "vulnerability" so that it automatically overcomes DR.

For instance, monsters who have a "holy silver vulnerability" are damaged by any holy silver weapons, even if the monsters normally have a +3/30 DR.

I actually kinda like this idea, as it would leave you free to give werewolves a a higher than +1/something DR, for instance, as long as they still have that all-important "silver vulnerability"... giving the characters the choice "Do we try to overpower it with just some really, really buff magic weapon... or do we try to figure out the *smart* way to hurt it?"

IT'S PERFECT!!!!

Jason

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I think that's probably a bit more work than necessary, since you already have Minor Magic (i.e. DR n/magic) and Major Magic (DR n/epic).

Brad

Ah, but you see not everybody uses epic. (I don't.) I would likely base it off of the odd numbers, +1, +3, +5. Easy to remember.

I will admit to being a little surprised that I haven't heard of any D&D critters that are only affected by psionics. Then again, I don't use psionics either, they might be in there somewhere, resting quietly.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I am going to have to introduce werewolves to my Steampunk campaign, I like the idea of greater werewolves having regeneration.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I will admit to being a little surprised that I haven't heard of any D&D critters that are only affected by psionics. Then again, I don't use psionics either, they might be in there somewhere, resting quietly.

That's because psionics is magic. If something is vulnerable to magic weapons, it is vulnerable to psionically enhanced weapons. And SR applies against psionic powers. That's something I love about 3/3.5 and hated about earlier editions. Being able to move stuff with your frickin' mind is magic. Maybe it should have been a third school of magic, the way Rolemaster had it, but it is clearly a supernatural effect.

Psionic-magic non-transparency was a disaster in 2E, a psion had plenty of defenses against magic but non-psions had no defenses against psionics.

 

[Storyteller01]

I've had the idea of hybridizing the DR, based on the same reasoning SW used. Something along the lines of:

base materials/Properties (lead, cold iron) can can be hit by +1

Exotic materials (gold, silver, possibly mitheral) can be hit with a +3

Truely exceptional (holy/unholy, Adamantine) can be hit with a +5


I prefer holy/unholy to good or evil. Just sounds better.

HAs anyone done anything similar?

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Seems reasonable to me... and less abuse-able than the idea of carrying around a "spice rack" of different swords made of different materials and charged with different alignments. ("Why... a formian? Let me bring out my CHAOS SWORD!... What's that, a Chaos Beast? Let me bring out my LAW HALBERD!... What? A golem? Let me bring out my ADAMANTINE HOOKED HAMMER!")

OK - I have to ask. Has anyone, anywhere, actually seen this happen in play? Just one person? This has seemed to be the most often used slam on 3.5 DR rules and I seriously doubt it has ever been used.

3.5 DR rules were easily the best changes to the game. I love the look of horror on my player's faces when they fight zombies and skeletons ("No, you cann't bypass that DR 5/slashing with a +1 arrow.").