Odhanan
Adventurer
Heh. That reminds me of an entry I wrote one day about the One Core Secret of Great Game Mastering. I still stand by that statement.
Why I don't play D&D anymore
- Thread starter marune
- Start date
This is what I did
As my good friend Gary said—“I hate the "motorcycle helmet law" approach WOTC takes. Adventuring means danger, a chance to get killed without bubble-wrap over all the sharp corners in the dungeon, and DMing means creativity and judgment. By and large, D&D players are smart enough that we don't need child safety locks. It almost seems like WOTC is afraid to get sued if a character is killed. I want the Holodeck Safety Protocols off.”
Style of Play
I am a “First Edition” style DM. My style of play can best be described as a “hex-crawl”. Travel and exploration is the name of the game. I do not direct what you do and where you go. You as players select that. I as a DM simply react to your wishes. Certainly I toss in plot hooks and scenarios from time to time, but I will not direct your movements or actions—this is not the Forgotten Realms. It is also important to note that the world is what it is—there is no “level of the world”. It’s possible that a first level party will stumble onto an ancient red dragon. Likewise a 10th level group might find a single kobold. Knowing when to run is a good thing. Dungeons are usually very nasty places. Take great care when exploring them. They are also the best place to find treasure and earn experience points. Adventurers guard their locations well.
The world itself is a grim and terrible place. Civilized areas are few and not always friendly. Magic items are not for sale, and a priest who can raise the dead is a rare thing indeed. Orcs might be friendly, whiles elves might slit your throat for trespassing. Certainly anyone found in the wilderness is a foe to be reckoned with, else they are lost and soon to die. NPCs are by and large low-level; a 7th level character is a god among men. As you will note below, advancement is slower than in 3E.
You should expect to die, a lot. Know when to run, and know when to hide.
Basic Rules/Modifications
1. PCs may use only the rules/feats etc. found in the WOTC PHB or in the Wilderlands Players Guide.
2. No psionic PCs exist.
3. No books are allowed at the table except those two books.
4. PCs should be rolled up at the first session using 4d6, discard the lowest method.
5. Any race/class is allowed, but Amazons and Altanians are not treated well by the world’s inhabitants, so keep that in mind. Basically think of these races as American Indians in the old west.
6. Please do not play wholly evil characters.
7. If you change classes, you may not advance in the previous class anymore (no jumping back and forth to min/max). I allow a maximum of three classes per PC. There is a feat in the Wilderlands Players Guide that allows the "normal" rules to apply for one class.
8. Magic is much rarer than in many games. Magic item creation feats cost 5x the xp and gold as in the book to use. Items beyond potions and scrolls take special materials that usually cannot be simply purchased.
9. No armor greater than +5 AC can be purchased initially (dwarves can purchase +7). Only a few cities have the technology level to make fancy metal objects. Exotic weapons (unless race specific) cannot be taken initially.
10. All PCs get maximum hp at 1st level, and may reroll 1’s and 2’s (2’s only the first time) when they advance in level.
11. Experience points are awarded at the end of each session only. I use story award experience—not the CR system or anything like it. Points are given for use of your brain as much as your sword. Advancement is instantaneous--no training is required.
Alternate Experience Progression
I do not like the change to the experience charts in the Third Edition rules, and believe that level advancement occurs too fast, particularly at low levels, depriving players of the formative levels with their characters. I use this XP chart in lieu of the one in the Player’s Handbook. The formula for determining XP is ([prior XP goal] + [2000 x the prior level number]). Thus, to go from 3rd level to 4th level, the new XP goal is 6000 (the prior goal for 3rd level) + 6000 (2000 x 3) = 12,000 XP for 4th level.
I have 8 players (sorcerer, sage, thief, wizard (all 3rd), cleric, fighter (2nd), and alchemist, fighter (1st)), and I am notoriously cheap on xp (like 5-10% compared to standard). I also use geometric xp tables from the Wilderlands players guide. Advancement is every 8-10 sessions. I have the players vote for MVP and #2 MVP. MVP gets a 200 xp bonus, and 2nd gets a 100 xp bonus. Works out to about a 15-20% bonus for the session. I find it works quite well too...folks try to play as a team.
My regular xp is as follows:
CR x 100xp/players each, half if not killed, 1/4 if PCs run away, 1/2 for traps. No xp for monsters of CR <3 less than the PCs, unless "in bulk".
Each Wilderness Hex or dungeon room explored-5 xp each PC
Minor plot theme deciphered/uncovered, solving riddle/puzzle etc. 50-100 each, like finding the dungeon entrance or solving the mathmatical puzzle
Major of same--150-500 each, like killing the BEBG after several sessions, rescuing the princess, etc.
Good/Creative idea (like tactics etc. that are really smart, e.g surprise me) 25 individual xp
Good roleplay--25-100/session each.
This works out to between 500 and 1500 xp/session typically. I do not escalate for PCs being higher levels...except CR factors go up. Makes for a good 1E level of advancement, and player skill grows at the same rate as character skill...I mean these guys are good.
28 sessions later, the survivors (4 are 3rd level, and the rest are levels 1-2 (depending on when they died). I think they have 4 permanent magic items (a +1 ghost touch axe, an amulet of protection from petrification, a minor robe of blending, and an amulet of +2 hide/move silently). They also have accumulated several potions and scrolls. Oh, and I charge 10x the xp for magic item creation. Maybe 5000 gp in treasure as well (from MATT!!).
They have been playing in Thracia and Barakus (Maps 1-2 area). Home base is Dankina and Valon. Biggest bad guys include a medusa and a hill giant. They spend a lot of time on exploration and discovery (hence the sage). Weird for me, I am used to a lot more "hack" focused players. I bet the average age is 40 too...real groggy.
As my good friend Gary said—“I hate the "motorcycle helmet law" approach WOTC takes. Adventuring means danger, a chance to get killed without bubble-wrap over all the sharp corners in the dungeon, and DMing means creativity and judgment. By and large, D&D players are smart enough that we don't need child safety locks. It almost seems like WOTC is afraid to get sued if a character is killed. I want the Holodeck Safety Protocols off.”
Style of Play
I am a “First Edition” style DM. My style of play can best be described as a “hex-crawl”. Travel and exploration is the name of the game. I do not direct what you do and where you go. You as players select that. I as a DM simply react to your wishes. Certainly I toss in plot hooks and scenarios from time to time, but I will not direct your movements or actions—this is not the Forgotten Realms. It is also important to note that the world is what it is—there is no “level of the world”. It’s possible that a first level party will stumble onto an ancient red dragon. Likewise a 10th level group might find a single kobold. Knowing when to run is a good thing. Dungeons are usually very nasty places. Take great care when exploring them. They are also the best place to find treasure and earn experience points. Adventurers guard their locations well.
The world itself is a grim and terrible place. Civilized areas are few and not always friendly. Magic items are not for sale, and a priest who can raise the dead is a rare thing indeed. Orcs might be friendly, whiles elves might slit your throat for trespassing. Certainly anyone found in the wilderness is a foe to be reckoned with, else they are lost and soon to die. NPCs are by and large low-level; a 7th level character is a god among men. As you will note below, advancement is slower than in 3E.
You should expect to die, a lot. Know when to run, and know when to hide.
Basic Rules/Modifications
1. PCs may use only the rules/feats etc. found in the WOTC PHB or in the Wilderlands Players Guide.
2. No psionic PCs exist.
3. No books are allowed at the table except those two books.
4. PCs should be rolled up at the first session using 4d6, discard the lowest method.
5. Any race/class is allowed, but Amazons and Altanians are not treated well by the world’s inhabitants, so keep that in mind. Basically think of these races as American Indians in the old west.
6. Please do not play wholly evil characters.
7. If you change classes, you may not advance in the previous class anymore (no jumping back and forth to min/max). I allow a maximum of three classes per PC. There is a feat in the Wilderlands Players Guide that allows the "normal" rules to apply for one class.
8. Magic is much rarer than in many games. Magic item creation feats cost 5x the xp and gold as in the book to use. Items beyond potions and scrolls take special materials that usually cannot be simply purchased.
9. No armor greater than +5 AC can be purchased initially (dwarves can purchase +7). Only a few cities have the technology level to make fancy metal objects. Exotic weapons (unless race specific) cannot be taken initially.
10. All PCs get maximum hp at 1st level, and may reroll 1’s and 2’s (2’s only the first time) when they advance in level.
11. Experience points are awarded at the end of each session only. I use story award experience—not the CR system or anything like it. Points are given for use of your brain as much as your sword. Advancement is instantaneous--no training is required.
Alternate Experience Progression
I do not like the change to the experience charts in the Third Edition rules, and believe that level advancement occurs too fast, particularly at low levels, depriving players of the formative levels with their characters. I use this XP chart in lieu of the one in the Player’s Handbook. The formula for determining XP is ([prior XP goal] + [2000 x the prior level number]). Thus, to go from 3rd level to 4th level, the new XP goal is 6000 (the prior goal for 3rd level) + 6000 (2000 x 3) = 12,000 XP for 4th level.
I have 8 players (sorcerer, sage, thief, wizard (all 3rd), cleric, fighter (2nd), and alchemist, fighter (1st)), and I am notoriously cheap on xp (like 5-10% compared to standard). I also use geometric xp tables from the Wilderlands players guide. Advancement is every 8-10 sessions. I have the players vote for MVP and #2 MVP. MVP gets a 200 xp bonus, and 2nd gets a 100 xp bonus. Works out to about a 15-20% bonus for the session. I find it works quite well too...folks try to play as a team.
My regular xp is as follows:
CR x 100xp/players each, half if not killed, 1/4 if PCs run away, 1/2 for traps. No xp for monsters of CR <3 less than the PCs, unless "in bulk".
Each Wilderness Hex or dungeon room explored-5 xp each PC
Minor plot theme deciphered/uncovered, solving riddle/puzzle etc. 50-100 each, like finding the dungeon entrance or solving the mathmatical puzzle
Major of same--150-500 each, like killing the BEBG after several sessions, rescuing the princess, etc.
Good/Creative idea (like tactics etc. that are really smart, e.g surprise me) 25 individual xp
Good roleplay--25-100/session each.
This works out to between 500 and 1500 xp/session typically. I do not escalate for PCs being higher levels...except CR factors go up. Makes for a good 1E level of advancement, and player skill grows at the same rate as character skill...I mean these guys are good.
28 sessions later, the survivors (4 are 3rd level, and the rest are levels 1-2 (depending on when they died). I think they have 4 permanent magic items (a +1 ghost touch axe, an amulet of protection from petrification, a minor robe of blending, and an amulet of +2 hide/move silently). They also have accumulated several potions and scrolls. Oh, and I charge 10x the xp for magic item creation. Maybe 5000 gp in treasure as well (from MATT!!).
They have been playing in Thracia and Barakus (Maps 1-2 area). Home base is Dankina and Valon. Biggest bad guys include a medusa and a hill giant. They spend a lot of time on exploration and discovery (hence the sage). Weird for me, I am used to a lot more "hack" focused players. I bet the average age is 40 too...real groggy.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
*doublepost*
Last edited:
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
The problem is not hardwired into the system, as the thread has shown.
Essentially, the problem is "The PC's have too many rescources." There are many, many, many, many ways you can solve this in the system without having to spend the time and money an effort to quit D&D and get a new game. Four pages of this thread have given you mostly just that. I will give you a few more. I would suggest giving all these a try, in the interest of trying and improving your game in the most efficient way possible.
The *easiest* way to solve your problem is to increase the number of encounters you throw at your party in a day, to increase the ways in which to take their rescources. See which spells the PC's prepare (and which they don't), and gear the missions to take those away from them gradually. If it's mostly combat-based effects, your "Mystery Solving" will probably have to involve beeting up mooks for info, barging into fortresses for clues, saving potential informants, etc. Your "Wilderness Trek" should involve a lot of combat with hostile natives. Your "Political Diplomacy" will have to use potential assassins and vast battlefields manipulated by egomaniacs and plenty of spies that can be beat up.
Of course, you want to vary the challenges, so also include things the PC's haven't really prepared for, such as using divination to uncover clues to solve the mystery, teleportation to cross distances for the wilderness trek, and abjuration to protect important political entities.
It may be useful, at first, to introduce time limits. To solve the mystery before the innocent man is executed, to trek accross the wilderness and back before the army needs the McGuffin, to persuade the emporer to allow trade before the snows close off the pass, etc. This will mean that the PC's are less likely to try to recharge after every encounter, knowing that if they do, they will be more likely to loose the campaign. Make this a direct correlation -- every day they rest, the BBEG gains +2 hp, every 2 days he gets +1 AC, every three, +1 to attack and damage, etc. As they wait, he gets more powerful.
Time limits can be varied enough and realistic enough that you won't have much of a problem continuing that for a while, until you're more used to the "default pace."
If you don't want to change, you can change the rules for your own purposes. Most simply, you can replace the spellcasting classes with something akin to the Warlock, with a much more limited list of abilities (though, admittedly, more uses of them). You may suffer from a lack of healing, but there are many rules in UA to help lessen that pain (reserve HP comes to my mind).
In increasing complexity, you can decrease the amount of rescources they get -- give them fewer spell slots, fewer power points, fewer spells they can use. You could even cast it in a light that is in-character for the world -- magic is slowly draining away, and the PC's can play a role in stopping it from going away altogether (if they fail, you now outlaw spellcasting classes, at least for a time). This would allow you to slowly reduce the number of PP or spell slots until you're happy with the amount (perhaps only one or two spells of the highest level, and only one or two spell/level for the rest...or have them choose between their most powerful effect or several weaker effects and THAT'S IT). Now, you probably want to give the spellcasters something else to compensate for their lack of spells, and I'd suggest something like the reserve feats from Complete Mage, which allow them to feel magical without actually having to spend rescources....simply elimiate the "spell prepared" requirement (because they may not have the slots for it!).
Finally, if you don't feel like you can bend the rules or that you can bend to the rules (or that doing such is more effort than purchasing, learning, and training new players on a new system), stop playing this game because you'd obviously be having more fun doing something else. Go do that.
DonTadow
First Post
There just isn't going to be a perfect system. Few systems are going to be perfect for you right out the box. D20 has been the easiest to pretty much change and adjust and keep balanced. I think a big part of this is maintaining the campaign and encounters and who shines from the DM level. There isnt a system out there that you can sit back and let the books dm for you. Eventually you're going to have to add and tweak your own content. You may add a house rule here or a 3rd party supplement there. Hekc you may do it over and over again. In the mean time you have to keep your head in the game and watch, see whose not shining and if you have to make up things on the spot for that person. If combats running a bit long and the non combat guy seems bored, throw in an interesting role playing moment.
Every so often on the board, it seems we get one of these, I'm giving up on d and d because the system won't dm for me. TO those people I often like to say take your bag and go home. Like having a good wife at home you leave for that stripper/homemaker only to find out that its not as good or only moderatly better than what you left. I keep hearing the running back angry because he can't find a hole. At some point you got to be like barry sanders and make your own.
If you sit there with a caclulator tryng to estimate the perfect ration of crs to your partys abilities you're missing the point. Heck, even monte and skip have verbalized that CR is not an exact science.
I review books all the time, and I always smile at the number of books I read that has rules and new rules that I houseruled a long time ago. If something wasn't flowing with the current system, I study it, write it down ,and make something that the group will enjoy in its place. I can't see any other system from true 20, to shadowrun to gurps, where I didnt have to do this at some point, even when I run one shots.
Every so often on the board, it seems we get one of these, I'm giving up on d and d because the system won't dm for me. TO those people I often like to say take your bag and go home. Like having a good wife at home you leave for that stripper/homemaker only to find out that its not as good or only moderatly better than what you left. I keep hearing the running back angry because he can't find a hole. At some point you got to be like barry sanders and make your own.
If you sit there with a caclulator tryng to estimate the perfect ration of crs to your partys abilities you're missing the point. Heck, even monte and skip have verbalized that CR is not an exact science.
I review books all the time, and I always smile at the number of books I read that has rules and new rules that I houseruled a long time ago. If something wasn't flowing with the current system, I study it, write it down ,and make something that the group will enjoy in its place. I can't see any other system from true 20, to shadowrun to gurps, where I didnt have to do this at some point, even when I run one shots.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
If this thread accomplishes nothing else, I hope it at least convinces the OP (and EVERYONE else) that 3E D&D was not designed on an assumption of 4 encounters per day. It is not geared to that. I've never read that anywhere in the rules, nor read or heard of it being an intentional design factor in 3E. The closest reference found to account for this misunderstanding is not even in the form of a rule. It only constitutes a warning that there are undesirable consequences for exceeding that pacing. It does not in any way constitute a recommendation that the game should otherwise maintain anything near that pace, much less that such pacing is needed to maintain "balance".
Raven Crowking
First Post
Well, if you're not having fun, you'd be a fool to keep doing it. Good luck with whatever else you decide to do!
RC
RC
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