'Why I hate 'Lord of the Rings' '

[kengar]

Couple of things to keep in mind re: Isildur, Elrond & the Ring.

While Elrond probably had Vilya at that point, it wouldn't have been for long (maybe even only for a couple hours). He got it after Gil-Galad was killed fighting Sauron. Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald and Gil-Galad was the previous keeper of Vilya.

The other thing is that -regardless of the morality of the situation- I doubt that Elrond could have pushed Isildur & the Ring into the fire. Remember:

"Ash nazg durbatuluk"

"One Ring to Rule them All"

If Elrond had attacked, Isildur -using the Ring- could have broken Elrond's mind and/or commanded him into the Fire. The Ring doesn't only turn you invisible, remember. It is the Ring of POWER. You rarely see Frodo do anything like that because he's doing his best NOT to use the Ring at all.

Bear in mind too, that what's on screen in that sequence is a loose interpretation of the events concerning the Last Alliance & the fall of Sauron. I don't recall exactly how it went down in the books, but I'm pretty sure it didn't get to the point that Elrond & Isildur were both standing at the edge of the lava.

 

[KenM]

But pushing someone else into a pit of lava isn't sacrifice. It is murder.

It is obvious that Elrond knew the power of the ring that Islidur got. If Elrond would sacrifice Isildur to the lava, its still a sacrifce for Middle Earth, the fact that Isildur does not want to be sacrificed does not lessen the fact that it would have been one. The way they should have done the scene was Elrond trys to push him, they fight, Elrond gets knocked out and then Isildur leaves. But Elrond does NOTHING, he had the chance to destroy evil forever and he let it live.

 

[kingpaul]

Did Elrond and Isildur ever, by the books, make it into Mt. Doom together? I don't have my books (loaned them out) so am not sure.

 

[KenM]

Did Elrond and Isildur ever, by the books, make it into Mt. Doom together? I don't have my books (loaned them out) so am not sure.

I belive the scene with them inside Mt. Doom took place outside the Mt. in the books. But in the movie, they are right there, inside. Elrond would have done something IMO. He talks about "men failing" when it is entirely his fault the ring was not destroyed then. Elrond knew what a evil power the ring was, and he was passionate about getting it destroyed, but does not take any action when he has the chance.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

SR: I see what you are getting at. But if Elrond told him that he had to throw the ring in, there can be no other choice if the evil was to be destroyed, then Isildur says No...well at that point he is a servant of the enemy. By refusing to destroy the ring he was aiding the enemy of the free peoples of Middle Earth. PJ should have done that scene differently seeing as it's pretty much just summed up in the Silmarillion, he had a lot of leeway.

 

[Storm Raven]

SR: I see what you are getting at. But if Elrond told him that he had to throw the ring in, there can be no other choice if the evil was to be destroyed, then Isildur says No...well at that point he is a servant of the enemy. By refusing to destroy the ring he was aiding the enemy of the free peoples of Middle Earth. PJ should have done that scene differently seeing as it's pretty much just summed up in the Silmarillion, he had a lot of leeway.

No, since the ring was Isildur's by right, it would have been unjust to take it from him, or force him to give it up against his will. That is why the claim of weregeld is so important. Isildur's claim to the Ring is one of proper, legal, and just ownership. Depriving him of it without his consent is an evil act in and of itself.

Killing Isildur to deprive him of his rightful property (compensation for the death of his father no less), would have been murder, no matter how you cut it. No matter whether you think the end would have justified the means or not, in Middle Earth, the ends matter. And doing something unjust, or evil in the presence of the Ring would have corrupted Elrond.

 

[Storm Raven]

It is obvious that Elrond knew the power of the ring that Islidur got. If Elrond would sacrifice Isildur to the lava, its still a sacrifce for Middle Earth, the fact that Isildur does not want to be sacrificed does not lessen the fact that it would have been one.

And it is still murder. You can cloak it in pretty phrasing all you want, but killing someone because they won't give up their justly claimed property is still murder. And murder, attempted muyrder, or even the intent to commit murder (or any other sinful act) opens your soul to the corrupting power of the Ring. Elrond would not have "won", even if he killed Isildur, he would have been dominated by the Ring and then he would have been the new Dark Lord.

The way they should have done the scene was Elrond trys to push him, they fight, Elrond gets knocked out and then Isildur leaves. But Elrond does NOTHING, he had the chance to destroy evil forever and he let it live.

Because he understands the power of the Ring, and you, clearly, do not. Trying to take the Ring from Isildur, or kill him with the Ring, would have left not only Isildur potentially corrupted, but would have also corrupted Elrond. And Elrond knew it. He knew that doing this would have led to open war between the armies of men and elves as Isildur and Elrond vied for control of the Ring, and Sauron would have gained immediate victory even in defeat.

As it was, the next great war over the Ring was postponed for several thousand years. Are you certain that Elrond acted wrongly? By refusing to be drawn into an immediate struggle over the Ring that would have inevitably led to immediate war between former allies and a new Dark Lord within days (and no one left to oppose him), his actions postponed war for about 4,500 years.

Your "solution" would have resulted in disaster. That is why Elrond is wise, and you aren't.

 

[kengar]

Your "solution" would have resulted in disaster. That is why Elrond is wise, and you aren't.

I'm not a moderator, but play nice Storm Raven.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

So Isildur had the right to hold onto a ring of total evil, which by the future of the world hangs in the balance? Elrond putting down Isildur after Isildur refused to do the only right thing to me would have been like a cop shooting a criminal. It's not the ends justify the means to me, it's Elrond doing the right thing. . No matter what "right" he has to this piece of pure evil, he has a moral obligation to destroy it. But he was weak, and Elrond should have done the right thing and killed this new servant of Sauron and destroyed the ring. You speak of murder when I speak of lawful homicide. When Isildur decided to keep the ring he threw in his lot with Sauron, regardless of him realizing it at the time. He enabled with his greed and weakness Sauron to live on and cause untold horror, evil, and death. Isildur bears to blood of thousands on his hands.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

But he was weak, and Elrond should have done the right thing and killed this new servant of Sauron and destroyed the ring.

But the beauty of Tolkien's creation is that Elrond couldn't have destroyed the Ring. If he had killed Isildur in its name, it's a safe bet that Elrond would have claimed the Ring and through him, it would have weld a power "too great and terrible to imagine". Wether Elrond let Isildur live or not, there was no right decision, and both choices lead to the same future.