'Why I hate 'Lord of the Rings' '

[KenM]

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Elrond would not have "won", even if he killed Isildur, he would have been dominated by the Ring and then he would have been the new Dark Lord.

OK, say the power of the ring does overcome Elrond and he gets angry and pushes Islidur over the edge and into the lava. Since Islidur still had the ring, THE RING WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED AND ITS POWER GONE ONCE IT HITS THE LAVA. Again, i'm not talking about any of the stuff in the books, I'm talking about the scene in FotR movie with them in the crack of doom, Elrond had a chance and let evil continue by doing nothing.

 

[kengar]

Is the issue at this point the movies/story or comparative morality?

As far as the films OR the books are concerned, the fact is that Isildur kept the Ring and thus it was still around come the end of the Third Age for the hobbitses to deal with. The scene in the film was a simplification of a relatively undefined part (as per the books) of after the battle with Sauron.

 

[kingpaul]

OK, say the power of the ring does overcome Elrond and he gets angry and pushes Islidur over the edge and into the lava. Since Islidur still had the ring, THE RING WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED AND ITS POWER GONE ONCE IT HITS THE LAVA. Again, i'm not talking about any of the stuff in the books, I'm talking about the scene in FotR movie with them in the crack of doom, Elrond had a chance and let evil continue by doing nothing.

But, with this intent now being acted upon, Elrond, under the Ring's influence, would have, probably, tried to gain the ring for himself instead of destroy it. This is one of the reasons the Ring became heavier for Frodo as he approached Mt. Doom; the Ring knew Frodo was trying to destroy it and didn't wat to cease to exist.

 

[Storm Raven]

OK, say the power of the ring does overcome Elrond and he gets angry and pushes Islidur over the edge and into the lava. Since Islidur still had the ring, THE RING WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED AND ITS POWER GONE ONCE IT HITS THE LAVA.

You just don't get it do you?

Once Elrond formed the intent to kill Isildur, the Ring would have power over Elrond. The instant Elrond decided "hey, I'll just push Isildur off the cliif", but EVEN BEFORE HE ACTED, the Ring gets its chance and Elrond becomes corrupted by it.

INTENT MATTERS. GET IT? IF ELROND HAD DECIDED TO KILL ISILDUR AT THAT MOMENT THE RING WOULD HAVE DOMINATED HIM EVEN BEFORE HE COULD ACT ON THAT DECISION.

The Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, because by forming an evil intent, Elrond would have fallen under its sway and been consumed by a desire to own the Ring, rather than push Isildur into the fire.

 

[KenM]

So Isildur had the right to hold onto a ring of total evil, which by the future of the world hangs in the balance? Elrond putting down Isildur after Isildur refused to do the only right thing to me would have been like a cop shooting a criminal. It's not the ends justify the means to me, it's Elrond doing the right thing. . No matter what "right" he has to this piece of pure evil, he has a moral obligation to destroy it. But he was weak, and Elrond should have done the right thing and killed this new servant of Sauron and destroyed the ring. You speak of murder when I speak of lawful homicide. When Isildur decided to keep the ring he threw in his lot with Sauron, regardless of him realizing it at the time. He enabled with his greed and weakness Sauron to live on and cause untold horror, evil, and death. Isildur bears to blood of thousands on his hands.

Very well put, I totally agree.

 

[kengar]

But, with this intent now being acted upon, Elrond, under the Ring's influence, would have, probably, tried to gain the ring for himself instead of destroy it. This is one of the reasons the Ring became heavier for Frodo as he approached Mt. Doom; the Ring knew Frodo was trying to destroy it and didn't wat to cease to exist.

and -like I said earlier- attacking the wielder of the One Ring is not a smart move. Especially if they know what it is they've got and are willing to use it.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

My difference from some may be that I don't see Isildur as a good guy, after he grabbed the ring he became a tool of evil, of the evil ring. There is no means to justify. Evil is on the verge of destruction, at least Sauron's evil, but this wonderful prince decideds, "hell I sure love this ring of pure evil, I'll keep it and obsess over it...", well in my book he became the enemy at that moment. His lawful right to own the ring is overruled by the lawful right of the world to protect itself from the evil he is enabling.

P.S. If an Orc was standing there with the ring in the same situation would Elrond have let him walk out with it? After all if he tried to push the Orc in he would have been corrupted right?

 

[Storm Raven]

So Isildur had the right to hold onto a ring of total evil, which by the future of the world hangs in the balance?

Yes, because Isildur claimed it as weregeld, a right granted to those who have had a relative killed by another. Isildur's ownership was just, which meant he might have been able to avoid the corruption of the Ring.

(Note, everyone who comes into possession of the Ring by "unjust" means, such as Gollum, become instantly corrupted by it.) Taking the Ring by force, or trying to deprive its owner by force corrupts you, such that you will change your mind from wanting to destroy it to wanting to own it.

Elrond putting down Isildur after Isildur refused to do the only right thing to me would have been like a cop shooting a criminal. It's not the ends justify the means to me, it's Elrond doing the right thing. No matter what "right" he has to this piece of pure evil, he has a moral obligation to destroy it.

A cop shooting a criminal is an ends justify the means argument. You commit an evil act (killing someone) for a good end (stopping a criminal). The right thing to do would be for Isildur to voluntarily destroy the Ring, but trying to compel him to do this, or trying to kill him to do it, would be evil no matter how you cut it.

But he was weak, and Elrond should have done the right thing and killed this new servant of Sauron and destroyed the ring. You speak of murder when I speak of lawful homicide.

But in a world where God makes the rules, there is no lawful homicide. Elrond isn't a cop, he's an elf-lord, and has to follow the rules of morality set forth by God, and killing another being in an effort to deprive them of their rightful property is murder.

Your problem is that you just don't understand Tolkienian morality (and to some extent, the part of Catholic morality that Tolkien used as the basis for his story).

When Isildur decided to keep the ring he threw in his lot with Sauron, regardless of him realizing it at the time. He enabled with his greed and weakness Sauron to live on and cause untold horror, evil, and death.

Thousands of years later.

Isildur bears to blood of thousands on his hands.

Yes, he does. But that is Isildur's sin. Trying to force the issue would have corrupted Elrond, and initiated a brand new sin on his part. And then Elrond would have had the blood of thousands on his hands. Fighting sin with sin never works in Tolkien, it only leads to ruin and death. The entire history of the Silmarillion is littered with the broken corpses of those who sought to fight sin with sin and were corrupted and drawn into the camp of evil.

 

[WizarDru]

Never mind the fact that, among other things, the RING would have acted of it's own accord. We see it do this several times in the movies, in fact. It was no accident that it failed Isildur when it did, no accident that it was found by someone who could be manipulated into moving it without it's enemies catching note of it, no action of chance that Gollum 'lost' it, nor an off chance that it fell from Bilbo when he fell down the mountain...getting itself closer to someone to take it and who it could work it's power on. It's even likely that it clouded Gandalf's mind on several occasions such as when he put it in the envelope, making him choose to waste valuable time researching it.

And, while we're on the subject of Isildur...he was standing further up the bridge, away from the edge like Elrond was. Elrond would have had to run Isildur down to even think of throwing him into the lava...not an easy task. Remember, Isildur wasn't just some schmoe from around the block...he was a mighty warrior of the Last Alliance, and the man who had just put Sauron down. I'm not saying Elrond wasn't powerful, or couldn't beat Isildur...just that it's not some simple hand-waving task.

 

[TracerBullet42]

I don't think that Elrond has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Grapple...

Would you be willing to take that AoO from Isildur holding the One Ring?