Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

[WhatGravitas]

I am not sure what you are truly asking though? Are you asking about the medium? It is about communicating in your language obviously.

No, I'm asking about the game - I'm wondering how important are game mechanics to this end and how much the general dressing of the surrounding world.

Sharing emotions with friends, on the base of a RPG, involves for me, having the ability to tell stories. But to tell stories, I want a game as vehicle that leaves enough room for that.

I'm not sure how to relate that to "4e design is about playing, like a card game is for example", as a good game will invoke emotions of all kinds and as it's mainly designed as a game, it leaves more room for a free-wheeling story.

Cheers, LT.

 

[xechnao]

No, I'm asking about the game - I'm wondering how important are game mechanics to this end and how much the general dressing of the surrounding world.

Sharing emotions with friends, on the base of a RPG, involves for me, having the ability to tell stories. But to tell stories, I want a game as vehicle that leaves enough room for that.

I'm not sure how to relate that to "4e design is about playing, like a card game is for example", as a good game will invoke emotions of all kinds and as it's mainly designed as a game, it leaves more room for a free-wheeling story.

Cheers, LT.

The ability to tell stories is based on a theater form of information exchange or interaction. You do not need a game for that. RPGs were not meant as games even if they have the game word in their name. What "game" really stands for in rpgs is the "simulationist" statistical basis to share your stories around it.

 

[Casupaa]

I don't think you're reading the same thread as everyone else. The line just above his points is "Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW", and explains before that he doesn't understand just what the comparisons are. You then proceed to make a confused pile of points that partly refute the OP, partly support him and some that are a mix of both...

1. Probably your closest point. WoW has talent trees, 4e has builds for each class. I think there is a point to be made in the similarity between the required system mastery of WoWs talent trees and 3.5 character builds though. Poorly placed talent points and poorly picked levels make you very ineffective in either game.

2. His entire point here was that PCs in WoW do not matter, they can't really change the world and nothing they do will matter in the long run. PCs in any DnD edition are often the characters changing the world. We'll see what they do in 4e for Forgotten Realms, but arguing that a campaign world of past editions was more like WoW than the current one isn't doing much to refute his point.

3. WoW has that one carrot for you to advance faster to the point where that carrot doesn't matter. Once you are 70 that is right out the window. At that point it's all about how much time you spend in PvP, instances and raids. When you are not in those you are spending time farming stuff so you'll be prepared for those. DnD you just show up, play with your friends and advance as fast or slow as the DM allows. MMOs are major time sinks, DnD is just how often your group wants to play (and you don't spend the rest of the week farming lower level creatures for drops so you can play).

4. So... arguing that older editions were even more magic item dependent than 4e is... doing what to refute the OPs point that 4e isn't like WoW?

5. You don't have to buy the WoW expansions but have fun being at 60 with nothing to do because everyone else does have the expansion and isn't even on the same world as you. You don't need the DnD "expansions". You can stick to the original core stuff. Your DM can pick and choose what to allow and what not to on a case by case from the later books.

Please, feel free to make any relevant points at all. We'll just excuse this time as a natural one on reading comprehension . It happens.

You fail, because OP's points fail.

 

[Kichwas]

I think a lot of people need to remember WHY there is an aggro system in the first place for MMORPGs before they actually criticize it.

The reason for the aggro system was because real life DMs CHEAT. We blatantly cheat, fudge the dice and play the monsters dumb.

Seriously, when facing down a wizard and a fighter, why again does the monster attack the fighter?

Mages should draw most of the attention of the monsters, but frankly, that's not fair to the player.

Not my DMs. they would always target the mages and archers and other backline unless we used an assortment of manuevers to prevent them.

Play an MMO without an aggro system - you'll see how my past DMs ran the game. Every mob tries to 'geek the mage' and as a warrior, you spend your energy trying to prevent this with blocks, trips, knockbacks, or even just plain forming a football like defensive line (remember, WoW lets you ghost walk through other bodies, but many MMOs do not - in both Guild Wars and Everquest if you stand in someone's way they can't go through).


As for how the new DnD mechanics force aggro... just try to ignore it and see how long your mobs last. And note that as the toons level up, they'll get encounter and daily powers that are even more effective at forcing aggro.

 

[Zinovia]

Now let's not bicker and argue about who killed who and stole their stuff. WoW and D&D have a loving relationship going back many years. WoW was born from D&D, and as children often do, grew beyond the expectations of its parents. Years later, we see D&D borrowing clothes out of WoW's closet in an attempt to look modern and appeal to the gamers of the 21st century. Only time will tell if D&D can get away with this, or if it just looks silly trying to wear something that's not suited to anyone over the age of 30. Like enormous spiky shoulder armor and weapons large enough to serve as a buffet table.

So while WoW owes it's very existence to D&D, the reverse isn't true at all. D&D has borrowed a lot of window dressing, artwork, and a few concepts from WoW, but overall the games don't play anything alike. I have played both of them for years. If I could get everything I want out of either game, then there'd be no reason to play both.

The similarities are in some of the artwork — the Linked Portal ritual picture comes to mind. It's virtually identical to the Portal spells in WoW as far as the imagery. Dwarves look more like they do in WoW, and a lot of the Eladrin art I've seen is strongly reminiscent of blood elves. Big shoulders are in for this edition of D&D, just as they always have been for WoW.

Another point that screams "WoW" to me is disenchanting. "Gee, no one can use the +2 spear of Fish Summoning, looks like we'll have to shard it.". There's no basis in D&D history for DE'ing items. It does provide a convenient solution to letting the players "get" every bit of treasure they pick up without having to make choices as to how many golf-bags full of weapons they are going to try and carry up the rope ladder out of the dungeon. I'm not sure I like that. I'd rather the players make the agonizing decision of what to leave and what to bring out with them. Then they face trying to buy and sell items without devaluing the local currency by flooding it with enough money to purchase a moderate sized town. Disenchanting feels like a copout to me, and WotC didn't even bother filing the serial numbers off when they stole it from WoW.

Some of the 4E powers do have a lot of WoW flavor to them, to the point where I find myself using WoW names for them as a joke. My son made an elven ranger, and I was teasing him about his wing clip and hunter's mark abilities, and kept calling him a hunter. So yes, there are similarities there for those who want to find them. That's okay, parents and children have a lot in common.

WoW for me is about raiding with my guild, running quests with my kids, and enjoying the stunning artwork. D&D is about roleplaying with my friends and creating an interesting story. Sure we get to kill bad guys and take their stuff in both games, but the way they feel in play is very different to me.

So 4E is running around with armor out of WoW's closet, and stole their dwarves and blood elves eladrin. I'm thinking that will be okay, but plan to make a tally sheet when I run KotS to count how many times my players complain, "That's like WoW!"

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire.

Zing!

 

[Philodox00]

That's a good list of comparisons. They don't make D&D 4 like WoW, though, I think.

Well, I think we can agree, that 4E is not a carbon copy of WoW, nor was WoW ever a carbon copy of DnD. What I think is the salient point here, is that there are a few of us out here that can compare the feel and style of 4E with WoW.

Our comparisons have to be broad, becuase WoW mechanics can be complex algorithims becuase a computer is running it, but DnD mechanics have to be transparent, becuase the players have to see how it works and understand it.

4E has no Aggro-mechanic like WoW. It has something with a similar goal, but it's different.
In World of Warcraft, Aggro is basically something like damage dealt. Special abilities artificially increase these aggro for the "tanks". A monster attacks the target with the highest Aggro. The actual danger the Tank poses to the monster is not the same as the aggro value. it is an artifically inflated value.

4E does not force a monster to attack only the Defender. It makes it a good choice, but attacking someone else is not forbidden. If you choose to ignore the defender, you take penalties (or even attacks). The Defender is dangerous, and not just pretending to be so.

I think that is a very important distinction. Even if the mark-mechanic itself is ultimately very abstract and "gamist", the "virtual aggro" is not virtual. It is real. If you don't attack the Defender, you actually take more damage.

This is ultimately the difference between WoW Aggro and D&D 4 "stickiness".

To be fair, 4E is merely trying to give some justification for a Marked target to attack the Fighter who's role in the party is to "Defend". If the rules had just stated " A Marked target will always attack the Fighter until the Mark is gone or till it retreats. " A lot of us would balk at that. So they give that marked target motivation to always attack the Fighter. They even have Area of Effect taunts, such as Come and Get it , Warrior's Challenge, Warrior's Urgeing, etc, etc.

Just not a good feel for me.

 

[xechnao]

WoW for me is about raiding with my guild, running quests with my kids, and enjoying the stunning artwork. D&D is about roleplaying with my friends and creating an interesting story. Sure we get to kill bad guys and take their stuff in both games, but the way they feel in play is very different to me.

I think the valid complaints are that 4e brings D&D closer to WoW in this respect.

 

[Twowolves]

On Aggro:
4E has no Aggro-mechanic like WoW. It has something with a similar goal, but it's different.
In World of Warcraft, Aggro is basically something like damage dealt. Special abilities artificially increase these aggro for the "tanks". A monster attacks the target with the highest Aggro. The actual danger the Tank poses to the monster is not the same as the aggro value. it is an artifically inflated value.

So, in a thread comparing 4th ed and WoW, your point is they are not the same because how aggro is determined isn't the same? The fact that 4th ed had added an aggro system AT ALL is a huge chunk of evidence that, yes, 4th ed IS more like an MMORPG than previous editions.

 

[WhatGravitas]

So, in a thread comparing 4th ed and WoW, your point is they are not the same because how aggro is determined isn't the same? The fact that 4th ed had added an aggro system AT ALL is a huge chunk of evidence that, yes, 4th ed IS more like an MMORPG than previous editions.

Sort of, yes. It steals the best ideas and reformulates it in a more RPG- and tabletop-like manner.

Cheers, LT.