Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

[xechnao]

...reformulates it in a more RPG- and tabletop-like manner.

Cheers, LT.

How so? I disagree that 4e works in a more tabletop-like manner. To me it is as abstract and artificial as in WoW. How is it so in 4e only one mark at a time is RPG like?

 

[Philodox00]

Sort of, yes. It steals the best ideas and reformulates it in a more RPG- and tabletop-like manner.

Cheers, LT.

I'm not convinced of that. Playing a game on-line is a different experince then playing a pen and paper one. I see absoluetly no real reason to include it in the game.

 

[Philodox00]

How so? I disagree that 4e works in a more tabletop-like manner. To me it is as abstract and artificial as in WoW. How is it so in 4e only one mark at a time is RPG like?

It makes a great minis game, in my opinion. If anything, the rules are consistent and streamlined with an emphasis on action. People like that and reaspond to it.

... Then there are those of us who don't, for a variety of reasons. I can't shake the feeling, I'm in a bad Anime. " The Goblins have surrounded me? OH NOES!!11! DIRE WOLVERINE STRIKE!!!!111 " or " The Ogre is too close to the wizard? THUNDERTUSK BOAR STRIKE!!!! "

 

[AllisterH]

Not my DMs. they would always target the mages and archers and other backline unless we used an assortment of manuevers to prevent them.

Play an MMO without an aggro system - you'll see how my past DMs ran the game. Every mob tries to 'geek the mage' and as a warrior, you spend your energy trying to prevent this with blocks, trips, knockbacks, or even just plain forming a football like defensive line (remember, WoW lets you ghost walk through other bodies, but many MMOs do not - in both Guild Wars and Everquest if you stand in someone's way they can't go through).


As for how the new DnD mechanics force aggro... just try to ignore it and see how long your mobs last. And note that as the toons level up, they'll get encounter and daily powers that are even more effective at forcing aggro.

In a turn based game, unless the DM sets it up properly, defending is pretty much a non-issue. Narrow corridors and 5 defenders blocking one monster, yeah, it works, but the simple one person blcking one monster from one other part member.?

Not really...Why do you think the OA system was first introduced in the first place?

And yes, the ability of monsters to ghost through players, that's why WoW has aggro. Like you said, Guild Wars is not a much better system, but that has its own issues

re: Disenchanting

How is this a Wow feature when Eberron had disenchanting BEFORE WoW and WOTC original RPG Ars Magica had it as well?

That's one of the problems I have with the 4e = WoW analogy. Even if it could be pointed out that 4E grabbed it from another RPG, if WoW had it, it obviously came from it....

I think gamers need to play more games I've played many other games and the Closest feel of 4E is that combat itself feels like a tactical japanese RPG with the combat round breakdown akin to M:TG with the feel of Earthdawn/OD&D.

 

[WhatGravitas]

How so? I disagree that 4e works in a more tabletop-like manner. To me it is as abstract and artificial as in WoW. How is it so in 4e only one mark at a time is RPG like?

On marks, you have me. I hate marks. They stand out as the ugliest thing in 4E - I like the other options (getting to stop enemies and divine damage) much better. But otherwise, it means that the fighter really *is* a fighter - he can protect people.

I'm not convinced of that. Playing a game on-line is a different experince then playing a pen and paper one. I see absoluetly no real reason to include it in the game.

Do you see a reason why *not* to include it? The main point of it is giving individual classes more abilities to show their own niche.

Which, in turn, strengthens the story. Now, a lone fighter can protect his friends by blocking a doorway completely, the rogue is now more able than ever to be acrobatic and swashbucklery. That's more material for stories, in my opinion, more actual roleplaying in combat than before.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

So, in a thread comparing 4th ed and WoW, your point is they are not the same because how aggro is determined isn't the same? The fact that 4th ed had added an aggro system AT ALL is a huge chunk of evidence that, yes, 4th ed IS more like an MMORPG than previous editions.

Anything that means fighters can and will intercept the monsters, and keep them from roaming freely to butcher the mages, is a good thing. Time will tell if the 4e implementation of the Defender role is a huge success or an epic failure (most likely, something in between), but I'm optimistic.

And no... it's not aggro. The whole point of aggro is to force the monsters to fight the tanks, instead of the crunchy support and damage-dealing characters.

The 4e system merely encourages them to focus on the fighters and paladins, because if they don't... well, they suffer the consequences, either in the form of a sword to the face or some divine wrath. Saying this is aggro, in the WoW meaning of the word, is like calling apples are oranges just because both are juicy, round and sometimes similarly colored fruit.

 

[xechnao]

But otherwise, it means that the fighter really *is* a fighter - he can protect people.

My point was that if one fighter wants to mark some guy all the other fighters have to drop their marks on him. This is...surrealistic at best.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Bah. D&D 4e is more like EverQuest 2 than WoW. I could sit down and convert every single EQ2 class into a D&D 4e class with ease in a matter of days, if not an afternoon. Achievements for EQ2 are somewhat like feats.

 

[Zinovia]

re: Disenchanting

How is this a Wow feature when Eberron had disenchanting BEFORE WoW and WOTC original RPG Ars Magica had it as well?

That's one of the problems I have with the 4e = WoW analogy. Even if it could be pointed out that 4E grabbed it from another RPG, if WoW had it, it obviously came from it....

Not all of us have the benefit of your experience with those systems. I never played with Ars Magica or Eberron. WoW was the first game *I* played that included the concept of disenchanting, and until 4E, I had never heard of it being used in another game. To me, DE'ing items is straight out of WoW, but it may well be something taken from Eberron. Given that Eberron and WoW were released only a few months apart, I suspect each of them came up with the concept independently of the other.

The fact is that there *are* parallels, and that I don't give a flying fig who got what from where. Saying one draws from the other is not a negative in my book, and I'm not going to fret about where the ideas come from. I have better things to do, like play games.

 

[jdrakeh]

Not all of us have the benefit of your experience with those systems.

And? A lack of experience with said games doesn't negate the fact that they exist and exhibited many of the so-called 'WoW features' before WoW was ever conceived (in some cases decades before WoW was conceived).

Haters are merely attributing features of tabletop RPGs that they don't like to WoW in an attempt to justify their contempt by asserting that such features are some kind of 'video game' innovation and, therefore, inferior to good, old-fashioned, play styles.

As this is the case, the origin of those same features is awfully important. If haters want to act out in ignorance of the facts, that's their decision -- though they should expect people to call them on it.