Why is Con so useless?

[FireLance]

Wait ... Bluff checks don't depend on your Con score? I've been playing D&D wrong! Curse you, non-intuitive naming convention!

 

[ExploderWizard]

I killed your master, and now you die as well. Clearly I was referring to a dwarven fighter-thief.

Ki-YA!

Ah but if he is multiclassed the CON bonus will be divided in half along with his hit dice.

SPIDERSHOT COUNTERED!

My AD&D kung-fu is the best there is. If you think you can beat me then register here.

(bonus points for identifying the movie quote )

 

[Quickleaf]

Quite the opposite.

Also, I appreciate the effort, but if to bypass a gate you have to turn yourself in to be tortured, you may be making things worse. Now you're the correct side of the gate, but in a cell, unarmed, possibly tied up and tortured.

Well, you and the OP are claiming that Constitution is "useless for making checks and is virtually just a combat stat."

I provided 10 examples of ways that Constitution could be used in the OP's example. You objected to 1 of those 10. And you're still arguing that there's a problem (or it's "inelegant") with how Constitution works. I don't get it.

 

[StarFyre]

In harsher environs (Athas, Hell, etc) we've used con to indicate how many rounds you can fight before you have to make checks. if you pass, you can continue. if you fail, you continue with a cumulative -1 every time you fail after.

friends thought it was neat. gave them something else to strategize around.

Sanjay

 

[Number48]

So is the expectation that in the next edition a player should be able to call upon any of the six abilities in any given situation? That seems like quite a stretch to me.



Sheesh if you really want examples of ways Constitution could be used to get inside a guarded manor house, here ya go:

1. Ditch your gear an hire on as a porter lugging goods into the manor courtyard or a sedan chair carrier for one of the manor nobles.
2. Engage an off duty guard in a drinking contest.
3. Hang on to the bottom of a carriage leaving town bound for the manor.
4. If the noble is an enemy, you could turn yourself in and just endure torture/beating, as part of a larger plan.
5. As a group somehow make the environs of the manor inhospitable (eg. control weather or start a fire), and while the manor is being evacuated the party sends in their toughest member.
6. Show the manor lord's rebellious son/daughter a "good time".
7. Have a wizard cast a polymorph spell into a housecat or a horse which requires a constitution based system shock check.
8. Aerial drop from a high tower/tree or while flying overhead - use CON to brace for fall (hey if you can use Dex to climb insead of Str why not?)
9. Engage the manor's guardian in a "game of wits" a la Princess Bride.

...and...

10. Hold your breath thru the stream feeding the manor's well.

1. Impersonation, Chr check.
3. Str check.
4. Doesn't get the group through the locked door.
5. Ridiculous.
6. ??? Not entirely sure what you mean here, I think you're calling for a Chr check.
7. Horses unlock doors?
8. Ridiculous, and doesn't open the locked door.
9. Bluffing, Chr check.
10. Getting to the well does not open the locked door.

Seriously. Try to come up with a situation where the group is encouraged to find their own solution to a problem. Con is not a go-to stat even if it's your best stat.

 

[Minigiant]

Because I'm bored I'm make a few lists

Exploration:
Endure extreme weather
Hold breath
Make Forced march
Ignore hunger or thirst
Ignore pain or fatigue
Resist poison and disease
Concentrate during stress

Combat attacks:
Breath weapons
Channel magic through one's body
Poison, diseases, & stenches
Gaze attacks
Sonic attacks
Other natural projectiles (quill shots, acid spit, death throws)

 

[Dausuul]

The infernolock channels hellfire through her body. The healthier she was, the more she could channel without... burning to a crisp.

Oh! So there's a mechanic, common to all infernolocks (not just the ones who took Power X/Feat Y/Paragon Path Z), where an infernolock who needs a damage boost can "overchannel" and zorch herself? After all, if Constitution works by increasing your capacity to channel without frying, you should be able to channel even more if you're willing to sizzle a bit.

...No?

Like I said. I don't object to Con being important for the infernolock, but it should work by mitigating nasty side effects, not as a direct attack stat.

 

[Number48]

Because I'm bored I'm make a few lists

Exploration:
Endure extreme weather
Hold breath
Make Forced march
Ignore hunger or thirst
Ignore pain or fatigue
Resist poison and disease
Concentrate during stress

I snipped out the combat, because Con in combat is given. This list, though, is exactly what I'm talking about. These are mostly ways to deal with something happening to you, not about capabilities you have when addressing a situation.

 

[Ahnehnois]

If you were to take the ability scores for all D&D characters across all editions and average them somehow, I think Con might be the highest. If not that then Dex first and Con second. It's an important score; only some lucky tank characters ever max it, but very, very few players allow their Con to be below 10. Not dying is important.

There may be some potential for using Con a bit more actively, but I'd hardly call it an underpowered ability score.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6688047]Number48[/MENTION]
This is a meaty response to your post, but I just wanted to preface by saying that we both agree that my #2 (engaging an off duty guard in a drinking contest) could get one inside the manor using constitution.

Also, I made the assumption that this manor had a courtyard in the manorial style and that the door would lead into the courtyard. If you want to further constrain the scenario of your OP, go for it, my answers were just operating under some assumptions with the generic scenario you framed.

1. Ditch your gear an hire on as a porter lugging goods into the manor courtyard or a sedan chair carrier for one of the manor nobles.

1. Impersonation, Chr check.

Sure, Charisma could work to pretend to be a porter. But once you've got to do the job of carrying a burden for a sustained period of time, you are in the realm of Constitution. Yes, it would be a DM's call if you'd need a Charisma check first, then a Constitution check, but the point is it's an entirely reasonable use of the stat which could potentially gain access.

2. Engage an off duty guard in a drinking contest.

It seems we agree here.

3. Hang on to the bottom of a carriage leaving town bound for the manor.

3. Str check.

As a DM you'd be within your right to call a Strength check. I would interpret which ability score based on whether the action was about power or about endurance. The way I was thinking of it... it doesn't take a lot of strength to wrap ones legs over a bar in the undercarriage and hold on for dear life, but it would take endurance to stay there for 10 minutes.

4. If the noble is an enemy, you could turn yourself in and just endure torture/beating, as part of a larger plan.

4. Doesn't get the group through the locked door.

I assumed that the manor would have some kind of dungeon and that you'd be taken there after "surrendering", and that the dungeon would be below the manor and have an access point to/from the manor. Clearly you have a different scenario in mind. Maybe you could elucidate?

5. As a group somehow make the environs of the manor inhospitable (eg. control weather or start a fire), and while the manor is being evacuated the party sends in their toughest member.

5. Ridiculous.

I saw a group do this with their druid in 3.5e; she summoned a locust swarm and then the tank went in to abduct someone. Not the exact same scenario, but it was a glorious strategy! Why do you say it's ridiculous?

6. Show the manor lord's rebellious son/daughter a "good time".

6. ??? Not entirely sure what you mean here, I think you're calling for a Chr check.

Haha, sure Charisma would fit. It's an old gamer's joke.

7. Have a wizard cast a polymorph spell into a housecat or a horse which requires a constitution based system shock check.

7. Horses unlock doors?

Again, different assumptions. You have a more specific scenario in mind than you originally expressed. I was envisioning a walled manor with a stable on the premises (for the horse), or a kitchen within the manor home itself (for the housecat).

8. Aerial drop from a high tower/tree or while flying overhead - use CON to brace for fall (hey if you can use Dex to climb insead of Str why not?)

8. Ridiculous, and doesn't open the locked door.

Yes it is ridiculous! There are stories from high-level play of the "air drop" attack, so this is in line with what is possible for high-level PCs in 3e & 4e, even if it is distasteful on a thematic level.

You keep saying "it wouldn't open the door", but neither would scaling the wall and going through the window (with Strength or Dexterity). The point is that crashing thru the skylight like Batman (or whatever) circumvents the obstacle and achieves the PCs' goal of entry.

9. Engage the manor's guardian in a "game of wits" a la Princess Bride.

9. Bluffing, Chr check.

Bluff does you no good if you ingest the iocane powder (which was in both cups all along!). That's Constitution.

Though it would certainly be a viable tactic to use Charisma or Dexterity to slip iocane powder into just their drink.

10. Hold your breath thru the stream feeding the manor's well.

10. Getting to the well does not open the locked door.

As above, I envisioned a walled manor with gardens and well inside the wall. You're imagining a more specific scenario. But I can only respond to what you post...

Seriously. Try to come up with a situation where the group is encouraged to find their own solution to a problem. Con is not a go-to stat even if it's your best stat.

What do you mean by a "go-to" stat? What about Wisdom, how is that different from Constitution in your mind?