D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[Parmandur]

It can be, but if the basis of the sliding scale is "common man" than a lot of fantasy things seem "Nearly Impossible".

Maybe just me but I can get my mind around Hard for level 5, Hard for level 10, Hard for level 15 heros (based on the fictional positioning of level X) a lot better than this fantasy thing is "Very Hard" for a common man or "Nearly Impossible".

It's really quite simple in play. The "by level" tables, love them or hate them, are clearly more complex, by definition, and you're opening gambit here was to claim that people who had aged 4E for years didn't understand the tables. Sort of undermines your point that they are easy to use if people can use the tables for years and not get them, doesn't it...?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It's really quite simple in play. The "by level" tables, love them or hate them, are clearly more complex, by definition, and you're opening gambit here was to claim that people who had aged 4E for years didn't understand the tables. Sort of undermines your point that they are easy to use if people can use the tables for years and not get them, doesn't it...?

Two separate items. I'm not arguing a blanket "by level" tables are simpler or easier. They might be more complex but are easier for me to get the results I'm after (or at least as easy with better results), but I can see why it might not be that way for others.

The argument is that even if the "by level" tables caused trouble coming from a different paradigm, we've had years to figure out what they are good for so why are we still bringing up the worst possible interpretation of 4e elements? There's not even organized play or other externalities getting in the way these days. Use the perspective that makes things work the best and make sense! You don't have to enjoy that perspective or 4e, but I don't see the point of trying to argue that the game should be played or evaluated in the least charitable way if other interpretations exist.

"If you set the ladder at Level 30 DC it's impossible for the Level 1 person to climb"
"Don't use Level 30 DCs for mundane 10ft ladders. DC by level is meant to represent overcoming challenges appropriate to that level and Tier. The fiction should change to match this. A level 1 easy check ladder is always a level 1 easy check ladder, but you shouldn't enounter mudane 10ft ladders as challenges at Level 30. They become window dressing. No need to roll. If you call for a level 30 athletics check it should be an EPIC challenge -- say vaulting from a portal a mountain above the cosmic cube and landing next to it while dodging Level 29 angel guardians. 4e mechanics are meant to resolve around level challenges which match the fictional positioning of that level/tier, maybe -/+5 levels works. Outside of this you can just narrate success or telegraph failure. "
"No thanks. I want ladders that challenge both a Level 1 commoner and a Level 30 Demigod."


Or the Warlord shouting wounds closed argument:

"I don't like 4e because you have Warlords shouting wounds closed"
"Well, especially in 4e hit points represent a lot of different things. Think of hit points more like heroic stamina. Warlords are just refreshing some of that stamina to carry on."
"Nah, hit points are meat points only."

Or prone:

"How can you prone an ooze?"
"Well, it's a mechanic that represents a target having to recover before moving. Most of the time that can be represented as prone but sometimes you have to think of different fiction -- maybe the ooze is split and needs to take a moment to fuse back together before moving"
"But it's called prone so it should be prone."

Since 4e is “mechanics grounded”, can you always come up with an in fiction narrative that is satisfying? Maybe not, but I'd say it's rare not to be able to.

The work to "make it work" is not elaborate mechanical changes but rather just accepting the paradigm 4e operates in.

I can see how people might not like this paradigm, but don't understand the continued denial of the mindset / paradigm that makes the ruleset work best, like using the Level DC tables for Level appropriate challenges rather than "morphing locks" that turn into Epic level locks when you come back to your starting village, or towns full of Level DC 30 ladders.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Every time I hear the "Level 30 Ladder" thing I just want to make an adventure with the fantasy lich equivalent of Arcade who abducts adventurers and puts them in dungeons based around bad-faith arguments you get on message boards. I'll have an entire adventure called "Chutes and Ladders" where the players have to navigate a bunch of DC 30 ladders which are covered in flaming grease or whatever and they'll have to watch out for traps that send them downwards and have to deal with even more ladders that flicker between dimensions or constantly change form.

"It's an easy task, adventurers! Just climb up the ladders to the goal! But if you don't watch your step, you might be traveling down, down, DOWN! AHAHHAHAHAHA!"

"... Oh god, this is going to be incredibly irritating."

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Every time I hear the "Level 30 Ladder" thing I just want to make an adventure with the fantasy lich equivalent of Arcade who abducts adventurers and puts them in dungeons based around bad-faith arguments you get on message boards. I'll have an entire adventure called "Chutes and Ladders" where the players have to navigate a bunch of DC 30 ladders which are covered in flaming grease or whatever and they'll have to watch out for traps that send them downwards and have to deal with even more ladders that flicker between dimensions or constantly change form.

"It's an easy task, adventurers! Just climb up the ladders to the goal! But if you don't watch your step, you might be traveling down, down, DOWN! AHAHHAHAHAHA!"

"... Oh god, this is going to be incredibly irritating."

That would be a pretty fun return to return to Castle Greyhawk idea...

To be fair, I do think there was a bunch of bad WotC modules that basically did just this. It still wasn't the SAME ladder or lock or door or whatever, but they just upped the material, etc. to justify the higher DCs. It is not the best / most interesting way to shift fictional positioning. Hah, you must now navigate this PRIMORDIAL FOOD PANTRY WITH PRIMORDIAL RATS!

I actually don't blame the confusion in the begining as even half the staff didn't seem to know exactly what they created. But come on, it's 15 years later now...

 

[Teemu]

About 4e vs PF2 movement: I’d lean towards arguing that 4e has more movement overall. There’s way more forced movement in 4e, and more triggered movement from immediate powers. Yes, PF2 doesn’t give everyone opportunity attacks, but the opportunity cost of moving is a bit higher in PF2. Many 4e powers, both PC and monster, include additional movement too, more so than PF2 feats and monster abilities.

 

[Justice and Rule]

About 4e vs PF2 movement: I’d lean towards arguing that 4e has more movement overall. There’s way more forced movement in 4e, and more triggered movement from immediate powers. Yes, PF2 doesn’t give everyone opportunity attacks, but the opportunity cost of moving is a bit higher in PF2. Many 4e powers, both PC and monster, include additional movement too, more so than PF2 feats and monster abilities.

I think it might well be better to split the difference and say they each have different kinds of movement. PF2 has potentially more open movement, but 4E's powers create a bunch more "tactical shifts".

 

[Thomas Shey]

About 4e vs PF2 movement: I’d lean towards arguing that 4e has more movement overall. There’s way more forced movement in 4e, and more triggered movement from immediate powers. Yes, PF2 doesn’t give everyone opportunity attacks, but the opportunity cost of moving is a bit higher in PF2. Many 4e powers, both PC and monster, include additional movement too, more so than PF2 feats and monster abilities.

I'm not going to say you're wrong--I'd have to go back over the 4e rules to be competent at it--but there's actually more movement boosts of one sort or another in PF2e than is obvious on the surface.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think it might well be better to split the difference and say they each have different kinds of movement. PF2 has potentially more open movement, but 4E's powers create a bunch more "tactical shifts".

And that's entirely fair; there are far less things that give, from lack of a better term, "free movement" in PF2e.

 

[Staffan]

This is not how 4e works in practice at all and there is a lot of movement. Combat advantage and flanking are, of course things. But a lot of the design of 4e provides reasons to move that make it worthwhile. Off the top of my head (and I've already mentioned some of these in the thread):

Right. I wasn't arguing (or at least not intending to argue, but since at least two people misunderstood me I clearly didn't convey my point well) that movement is irrelevant in 4e – it certainly is, and overall probably to a greater degree than PF2 because of the amount of forced movement in the game and the number of ways of setting up and/or exploiting hazardous terrain. I was just pointing out the corner where PF2 uses a common resource for movement and attacking, while 4e has separate resources, which means that if you force your opponent to move they won't be able to attack as efficiently. So in a way, PF2 movement is in itself a debuff whereas 4e movement is done to set things up.

 

[Staffan]

Come to think of it, one of the things that makes 4e more tactical than PF2 overall is the strong focus on the grid. 4e has a lot of forced movement and large-ish damaging/hampering zones, even at low levels and when using at-will abilities. Look at thunderwave for example: a close blast 3 (so 3x3 squares) dealing fairly low damage on an attack vs Fortitude, but on a hit you also push your targets a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier (so probably 2-3). Or ray of frost, which deals damage and slows. PF2 has nothing even close to thunderwave, and PF2's ray of frost applies a minor speed penalty instead of Slowed, and only does so on a critical hit.

PF2 on the other hand does a lot more work with conditions – not so much with cantrips, but leveled spells hand out conditions like candy. Toxic, delicious candy.