Samurai
Adventurer
Invisibility isn't that good... it requires a standard action every round to maintain, and you can't attack while invisible.
Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?
- Thread starter Old Gumphrey
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Invisibility isn't that good... it requires a standard action every round to maintain, and you can't attack while invisible.
Like I said before. Its okay tht Cleric AOE deals more damage and hits only enemies because:
1) they lack the ranged debuffs to hold and push enemies together
2) Damage AOE is the weaker and less effective option most of the time.
3) It gives the cleric a reason to take the power (we don't want second class powers in this edition too)
It's like taking the sniper rifle from the man with steady hands (wizard) and giving it to the one with shaky hands (cleric). Use he can use it, just not as effective as the other guy.
I'll take knocking 4 guys into a wall, slowing them, then slamming 3 slightly weaker AOEs on them
over
hoping the more than 1 guy stand still and dropping a slighlty stronger AOE on them.
But that's me.
1) they lack the ranged debuffs to hold and push enemies together
2) Damage AOE is the weaker and less effective option most of the time.
3) It gives the cleric a reason to take the power (we don't want second class powers in this edition too)
It's like taking the sniper rifle from the man with steady hands (wizard) and giving it to the one with shaky hands (cleric). Use he can use it, just not as effective as the other guy.
I'll take knocking 4 guys into a wall, slowing them, then slamming 3 slightly weaker AOEs on them
over
hoping the more than 1 guy stand still and dropping a slighlty stronger AOE on them.
But that's me.
Mongolia Jones
First Post
The Problem is is that Clerics have a number of AoE's that damage and control just as well as a wizard.
Then why do Clerics have to have the best AoE striking powers too?
And as far as "second class powers" go, if you really look at some of the cleric attack powers, the cleric single target powers do fall into that second class category.
Lets see, by my estimation your example above requires 5 or 6 powers to pull off.
Now lets take at what a single cleric power can do:
Seal of Warding (cleric 15th daily)
1. It does AoE damage (like a Wizard can)
2. It slows enemies (control effect 1)
3. It modifies terrain (control effect 2)
4. It protects party members (leader effect 1)
5. It persists (prolonging control and leader effects)
6. And lastly, It only affects enemies (the bad stuff at least)
Wow, just wow. All this in one small package.
I wouldn't even touch the other cleric single target daily of the same level (it's 2nd or even 3rd class compared to this power).
Looking at the 17th level encounters, the cleric AoEs are clearly superior to the single attack powers. They damage and control just like a wizard can with the added benefit of only effecting the baddies in the areas.
WhatGravitas
Explorer
Then tell me, what is the best spell to hurl people? If it's about frequency, the wizard with Thunderwave wins.
If it's about effectivity... it's Thunderous Word with push of 3 + Cha mod for the cleric. As encounter spell, enemies only. The wizard will never have anything, not even a daily, that has something that even touches that hurling power.
But wait, it isn't a "real" controller power, it's a leader power, because it also gives allies the ability to shift one square - so the cleric's leader power helps allies and out-controls the wizard's battlefield control as well? What?
The wizard will never reach this level of pushing power, even as archmage.
Cheers, LT.
Goumindong
First Post
I don't think you can, I don't think you can find a level 6 cleric spell superior to shield. Oh wait, what is that, its the cleric shield spell at level 6 and the wizard has it at level 2!
Well, the wizard one only works on itself and is a shield bonus instead of a power bonus, but still, that is kinda like saying "firestorm is better than Evard's black tentacles or Cloudkill" ignoring that Cloudkill can be moved and the Evard's black tentacles has control(and really strong, ongoing control that can be re-applied once someone saves against it)
No, Clerics do not have control anywhere near Wizards. Wizards have ranged 2 close blast 4's that push 5+ at will!
Every level of encounter power they have an ability that will take at least one enemy out of the fight for a full round. You get to daze enemies as an encounter power at level 3.
Prismatic Beams(AoE against three defenses! With status effects and two ongoing damage types.), Wall of Ice. Both better control than Seal of Warding.
Goumindong
First Post
The question is not "is Thunderous Word a better pushing power than Thunderwave?" The question is "Is Thunderous Word a better controlling power than Thunderwave and Ice Tomb or Force Volley"
Asking whether or not a lv 17 push is going to be stronger or weaker than an at will is a bit like complaining that Thunderous Word does more damage twin strike.
Mongolia Jones
First Post
You can't be serious, have you even read the cleric powers?
Lets look at level 2 utilities...
Wizard's: Shield (+4 to your AC and ref for a single round, or less)
vs.
Cleric's: Shield of Faith (+2 to AC for ALL ALLIES and WHOLE ENCOUNTER)
Cleric's: Sanctuary (+5 to all defenses, one or more rounds)
The choice seems clear to me, cleric wins...
As far as the level 6 utilities... don't even go there. The cleric can heal one guy half his full hit points or grant a third wind for every party member. Those are massively superior to the wizard's Shield power.
Mongolia Jones
First Post
Yeah but the whole party can move and engage freely within a Fire or Astral storm.
The party can't do that in an evard's or cloudlkill. Not even Arcane Mastery will work well in this case, unless your own party members are willing to immobilize themselves.
WhatGravitas
Explorer
Neither. The questions are:
1) Is forced movement control? Personally, I think "yes."
Then:
2) Which of these to classes have access to better forced movement abilities?
Lets' see:
The Cleric:
At-Will:
None
Encounter:
Cause Fear (1) - noteworthy is the chance to trigger OAs, moves speed + Cha (usually 6 + Cha), but no forcing into hazards
Command (3) - Daze and slides 3 + Cha OR knocks prone, no damage
Thunderous Word (17) - Damage, slides allies and 3 + Cha push
Daily:
None
The Wizard:
At-Will:
Thunderwave
Encounter:
Spectral Ram (7) - damage, prone and 3 squares
Thunderlance (13) - damage and 4 squares
Daily:
Elemental Maw (25) - pull 2, draws them into a place of hurt
Bottomline: The wizard has Thunderwave, which sets him apart, as it's an at-will. Outside of at-wills, the cleric gets options much earlier, which are more effective, though lack the attached damage.
The wizard is better at spamming such effects due to thunderwave, but the effects the cleric gets to move people more squares, i.e. wizard gets quantity, cleric gets quality.
Cheers, LT.
Goumindong
First Post
You're doing it again. You ignore that Shield of Faith is a daily and Shield is an encounter. You ignore that Sanctuary forces the target to not attack anyone or the effect ends and both are standard actions instead of interrupts.
And i was wrong, the cleric shield equivalent is level 10.
Clerics simply are not better at control than wizards, they aren't close to better at control than wizards and the overlap is minimal.
When there is a benefit that makes a wizard power better than another, you ignore it. When there is a penalty that makes a wizard power weaker than another, you harp on it.
Also, that cleric power will only grant a second second wind, not third.
And i was wrong, the cleric shield equivalent is level 10.
Clerics simply are not better at control than wizards, they aren't close to better at control than wizards and the overlap is minimal.
When there is a benefit that makes a wizard power better than another, you ignore it. When there is a penalty that makes a wizard power weaker than another, you harp on it.
Also, that cleric power will only grant a second second wind, not third.
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