Why is it so important?

[Lurks-no-More]

I know by "them" you don't really mean "your players" but rather "their PCs". Nevertheless, I think this is telling, because it suggests a high degree of expectation, in your game, that the player's experience will mirror that of the PCs - for example, that a setback for the PCs is also a setback for the players. Not all RPGs unfold that way - in some games, a setback for a PC can be a reward for the player, in the sense that it can be a source of fun and pleasure in playing the game. This latter sort of player is, I think, less likely to care for playing out the sort of logistical matters to which operational play gives rise.

[...]

Not every RPGer believes that adversity for the PC should be adversity for the player. After all, many players experience adversity in other parts of their life - they play games for pleasure. So, if the PCs don't die but don't get the Grail, the consequent unfolding of the plot is itself a source of interest and pleasure.

Some of the best D&D sessions and campaigns I've had involved our characters being on the run from a hated enemy, trying desperately to reason their way through the world-breaking prophecy they had found themselves entangled in, and so on. The characters were having a terrible time; the players were having a terrific time.

Of course, if your game is nothing but adversity for the characters, it will soon become boring and frustrating for the players as well; the same goes with constant in-character success.

 

[Jackelope King]

Ah, but if you are going to give Class A flexability compared to Class B, then Class B must get something to compensate, right? So, if Class A gets flexability and unlimited resources, and Class B gets no flexability and unlimited resources, there's going to be a problem.

The solution, of course, is to simply drop the fighter as "unfun". Perhaps we can replace him with some form of Wuxia character that has both flexability and unlimited resources.....say a spell-casting warmage?

Of course, then you need to worry about giving the warmage better armour and attacks than the wizard. Perhaps we should just drop the wizard altogether as "unfun". If we fold rogue skills and healing into the Warmage, we won't need any other class.

RC

You're sliding down the slippery-slope, RC. "Balanced" doesn't mean "identical". My M&M group is case-in-point of this. We have:

- A psychic ninja who absolutely excells in one-on-one encounters against weak-minded foes.
- A radiation controller who can control her own mass who is the most terrifying grappler in the group, and can generally shut down opponents pretty well and also evade damage like a pro.
- A hellfire wielder who is probably pound-for-pound the biggest damage dealer in the group, with a lot of options for making people go boom; he's got pretty fair damage-evasion abilities.
- An alchemic paragon who is a superb tank and who has some nice versatility in an array of alchemy he can unleash to transmute nearby matter.
- A matter- and energy-shaper who is a fine tank herself but can also warp the battlefield to the order of 100,000 cubic feet of matter per round; she's also the group leader and can boost her allies' saves and attack rolls.

All of these heroes are very different characters, whose powers have completely different applications, each of whom fill different roles in the group. And yet they are (for the most part) balanced with each other, all performing similarly in combat. Sure the hellfire wielder and alchemic paragon have to be more careful when it comes to infiltration (or they can act as distractions very easily). And if it involves taking down a tough opponent with a low will-save, the hellfire wielder and psychic ninja are the best bets. If it requires battlefield control, you really need to turn to the alchemic paragon and the matter-shaper. And for goon-sweeping? Sure, everyone can hack it, but the matter-shaper can manipulate so much matter that she can take out whole army divisions in one round.

"Balanced" does not mean "identical".

 

[Raven Crowking]

You're sliding down the slippery-slope, RC. "Balanced" doesn't mean "identical". My M&M group is case-in-point of this.

No. You are absolutely right. Balanced does not mean identical.

Two classes can be balanced, even though one is a combat machine and the other is not.

RC

 

[Jackelope King]

No. You are absolutely right. Balanced does not mean identical.

Two classes can be balanced, even though one is a combat machine and the other is not.

RC

One can be a martial combat machine and the other can be something else. Like an arcane controller

EDIT: But seriously, so long as people can do something meaningful and role-appropriate during an enecounter and do so while balanced with one another, then s'allgood.

And since you seem to have missed my earlier reply, I'll post it again.

There is a WORLD of difference between a 10th level fighter and four goblins (where there is, presumably, no challenge at all) and the encounter I ran in M&M just last night where the PCs were left after the encounter in exactly the same state, mechanically, they were before. Since you seem to equate the 10th level fighter and four goblins with any encounter where resource expenditure is minimized, I pose the following challenge to you:

Please tell me how the six rounds of combat, where the PCs were forced to contend with a water ninja's obscure effect, the Hellfire-controlling PC almost taking himself out of the fight when he stabbed an alternate-universe version of himself in the soul, federal agents stunning and trapping a shrinking hero in a specimen jar, and a squad of soldiers taking one of the heroes prisoner temporarily was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the Big Bad Evil Guy rolling so well for the first four rounds that he didn't take any damage, as well as one federal agent who took an absurd amount of punishment for those early rounds (again rolling extremely well), leaving the PCs seriously wondering whether or not they could win the fight, especially when an NPC psychic with them was rolling so poorly that he might as well not have been there (he couldn't hit the broad side of an anything) was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the enemies upending lab benches to use for cover to thwart the PC blasters' attacks, volatile chemicals exploding and harming PC and NPC alike, and the MacGuffin both groups were after (a rare primate) sitting in the middle of all of this chaos with his piddly +1 toughness save modifier was of no "mechanical interest".

The PCs were going through hero points, alright, but they were gaining them like crazy too, thanks to unforseen complications arising constantly (one PC fighting her archenemy, another having to fight his alternate self, a third being trapped in a lead-lined specimen container that blocked her powers). Indeed, even the luck controller (who by design must spend oodles of hero points) wound up right back to where he started after the fight, when an NPC snuck away with a box containing material which could be used to blackmail him.

Please tell me how this encounter was of no "mechanical significance".

And most importantly, please make sure your forward your response to my players, who told me that they greatly enjoyed the encounter last night and thought it was great fun. They apparently need to know that their encounter had no "mechanical significance", and that they should have simply ticked off resources instead and skipped the encounter. That's what you do with things that are insignificant, right?

 

[Raven Crowking]

One can be a martial combat machine and the other can be something else. Like an arcane controller

EDIT: But seriously, so long as people can do something meaningful and role-appropriate during an enecounter and do so while balanced with one another, then s'allgood.

Though we will note, in our examples, the wizard who uses his high-level spells and then wants to rest instead of using his mid- & low-level spells is, in fact, doing more than the fighter in those encounters overall.

While not by any means universal, I imagine that there is a contingent who isn't actually interested in balance -- they want more power, now, and they want no downside to it....even when the downside is only "balanced with everyone else". Which is why we strangely hear that the wizard blows away the fighter power-wise, and yet strangely hear a call to give the wizard more power to balance him.

And since you seem to have missed my earlier reply, I'll post it again.

I didn't miss it, and I am glad you reposted it because it saves me the trouble of trying to find it again.

While what you posted here is undoubtably true, I am not sure how what you posted here actually answers Gizmo33's questions. This seems more like an (unintentional, I am sure) sidestep of the questions by answering soemthing that wasn't asked.


RC

 

[Jackelope King]

Though we will note, in our examples, the wizard who uses his high-level spells and then wants to rest instead of using his mid- & low-level spells is, in fact, doing more than the fighter in those encounters overall.

While not by any means universal, I imagine that there is a contingent who isn't actually interested in balance -- they want more power, now, and they want no downside to it....even when the downside is only "balanced with everyone else". Which is why we strangely hear that the wizard blows away the fighter power-wise, and yet strangely hear a call to give the wizard more power to balance him.

Wizards are more powerful than fighters now. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the conversation.

I didn't miss it, and I am glad you reposted it because it saves me the trouble of trying to find it again.

While what you posted here is undoubtably true, I am not sure how what you posted here actually answers Gizmo33's questions. This seems more like an (unintentional, I am sure) sidestep of the questions by answering soemthing that wasn't asked.


RC

Gizmo asked:

I have never understood, though this is a long standing issue, how an encounter that poses no risk to a PC (of either resource loss or loss of life) is of any mechanical interest.

Maybe try with this extreme example. 4 20th level characters against 4 standard kobolds. The 20th level characters are at full power, and so they have a huge range of abilities to exercise. There's no chance of PC death. And we'll say there's no resource expenditure issues since it's the only encounter that day (and it probably doesn't even require that). My question is: how can you make this an encounter of "mechanical interest"?

If this is a bad example, then why? What fundemental difference is there with any other encounter where PCs know they're going to win and know that there is no impact on their daily resources?

Emphasis mine.

There is a WORLD of difference between a 10th level fighter and four goblins (where there is, presumably, no challenge at all) and the encounter I ran in M&M just last night where the PCs were left after the encounter in exactly the same state, mechanically, they were before. Since you seem to equate the 10th level fighter and four goblins with any encounter where resource expenditure is minimized, I pose the following challenge to you:

Please tell me how the six rounds of combat, where the PCs were forced to contend with a water ninja's obscure effect, the Hellfire-controlling PC almost taking himself out of the fight when he stabbed an alternate-universe version of himself in the soul, federal agents stunning and trapping a shrinking hero in a specimen jar, and a squad of soldiers taking one of the heroes prisoner temporarily was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the Big Bad Evil Guy rolling so well for the first four rounds that he didn't take any damage, as well as one federal agent who took an absurd amount of punishment for those early rounds (again rolling extremely well), leaving the PCs seriously wondering whether or not they could win the fight, especially when an NPC psychic with them was rolling so poorly that he might as well not have been there (he couldn't hit the broad side of an anything) was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the enemies upending lab benches to use for cover to thwart the PC blasters' attacks, volatile chemicals exploding and harming PC and NPC alike, and the MacGuffin both groups were after (a rare primate) sitting in the middle of all of this chaos with his piddly +1 toughness save modifier was of no "mechanical interest".

The PCs were going through hero points, alright, but they were gaining them like crazy too, thanks to unforseen complications arising constantly (one PC fighting her archenemy, another having to fight his alternate self, a third being trapped in a lead-lined specimen container that blocked her powers). Indeed, even the luck controller (who by design must spend oodles of hero points) wound up right back to where he started after the fight, when an NPC snuck away with a box containing material which could be used to blackmail him.

Please tell me how this encounter was of no "mechanical significance".

And most importantly, please make sure your forward your response to my players, who told me that they greatly enjoyed the encounter last night and thought it was great fun. They apparently need to know that their encounter had no "mechanical significance", and that they should have simply ticked off resources instead and skipped the encounter. That's what you do with things that are insignificant, right?

I'm hoping someone will soon answer me and tell my how this encounter was of no "mechanical significance".

 

[Raven Crowking]

Gizmo asked:

I don't think anyone is claiming that your encounter wasn't significant, although you don't give enough information to know if it was mechanically significant or not.

OTOH, I think I see the disconnect. What you placed emphasis on was a statement. Gizmo33's questions in the quoted section are:

(1) How can you make this an encounter of "mechanical interest"? (Relates to the specific setup in his post, which you quoted)

(2) If this is a bad example, then why?

(3) What fundemental difference is there with any other encounter where PCs know they're going to win and know that there is no impact on their daily resources?

Those three questions remain unanswered, except by Mustrum_Ridcully, whose response to (1) was, essentially, "You can't". Everyone else seems to be ignoring those questions, or answering something other than those questions. I believe the reason for this is obvious -- Mustrum_Ridcully is absolutely correct.

RC

 

[shilsen]

I don't think anyone is claiming that your encounter wasn't significant, although you don't give enough information to know if it was mechanically significant or not.

OTOH, I think I see the disconnect. What you placed emphasis on was a statement. Gizmo33's questions in the quoted section are:

(1) How can you make this an encounter of "mechanical interest"? (Relates to the specific setup in his post, which you quoted)

(2) If this is a bad example, then why?

(3) What fundemental difference is there with any other encounter where PCs know they're going to win and know that there is no impact on their daily resources?

Those three questions remain unanswered, except by Mustrum_Ridcully, whose response to (1) was, essentially, "You can't". Everyone else seems to be ignoring those questions, or answering something other than those questions. I believe the reason for this is obvious -- Mustrum_Ridcully is absolutely correct.

RC

Color me skeptical, but I'd wager that even if someone answered those questions, gizmo33 and/or you would either deny they answered the questions or come up with a tangential statement and take things in another direction.

That being said, I'm off to teach now but I'll take a crack at the questions later, if someone hasn't already done so. My PCs have had many encounters where they knew it was the only encounter in the day and that they wouldn't lose, but which the players found to be of significant interest.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Color me skeptical, but I'd wager that even if someone answered those questions, gizmo33 and/or you would either deny they answered the questions or come up with a tangential statement and take things in another direction.

That's a testable hypothesis.

Test it.

RC

 

[Jackelope King]

I don't think anyone is claiming that your encounter wasn't significant, although you don't give enough information to know if it was mechanically significant or not.

Then what sort of information would you need to know?

OTOH, I think I see the disconnect. What you placed emphasis on was a statement. Gizmo33's questions in the quoted section are:

(1) How can you make this an encounter of "mechanical interest"? (Relates to the specific setup in his post, which you quoted)

Because the events in the encounter included actions which were of mechanical interest, clearly. On every single round, the characters made meaningful choices which impacted (in some cases positively, in some cases negatively) the outcome of the encounter due to changes in the mechanical states of themselves and their allies and enemies.

(2) If this is a bad example, then why?

Because it's a strawman. I provided an example where the PCs were in little danger of actually being killed (though they could be defeated and hurt) and where there was no appreciable change in the mechanical capabilities after the fight in relation to the way they were before it, and yet the encounter itself was of great mechanical interest.

(3) What fundemental difference is there with any other encounter where PCs know they're going to win and know that there is no impact on their daily resources?

How much fun the encounter itself is, in the challenge it presents.

Those three questions remain unanswered, except by Mustrum_Ridcully, whose response to (1) was, essentially, "You can't". Everyone else seems to be ignoring those questions, or answering something other than those questions. I believe the reason for this is obvious -- Mustrum_Ridcully is absolutely correct.

RC

I've now answered those questions again. Will you answer mine?

There is a WORLD of difference between a 10th level fighter and four goblins (where there is, presumably, no challenge at all) and the encounter I ran in M&M just last night where the PCs were left after the encounter in exactly the same state, mechanically, they were before. Since you seem to equate the 10th level fighter and four goblins with any encounter where resource expenditure is minimized, I pose the following challenge to you:

Please tell me how the six rounds of combat, where the PCs were forced to contend with a water ninja's obscure effect, the Hellfire-controlling PC almost taking himself out of the fight when he stabbed an alternate-universe version of himself in the soul, federal agents stunning and trapping a shrinking hero in a specimen jar, and a squad of soldiers taking one of the heroes prisoner temporarily was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the Big Bad Evil Guy rolling so well for the first four rounds that he didn't take any damage, as well as one federal agent who took an absurd amount of punishment for those early rounds (again rolling extremely well), leaving the PCs seriously wondering whether or not they could win the fight, especially when an NPC psychic with them was rolling so poorly that he might as well not have been there (he couldn't hit the broad side of an anything) was of no "mechanical interest".

Please tell me how the enemies upending lab benches to use for cover to thwart the PC blasters' attacks, volatile chemicals exploding and harming PC and NPC alike, and the MacGuffin both groups were after (a rare primate) sitting in the middle of all of this chaos with his piddly +1 toughness save modifier was of no "mechanical interest".

The PCs were going through hero points, alright, but they were gaining them like crazy too, thanks to unforseen complications arising constantly (one PC fighting her archenemy, another having to fight his alternate self, a third being trapped in a lead-lined specimen container that blocked her powers). Indeed, even the luck controller (who by design must spend oodles of hero points) wound up right back to where he started after the fight, when an NPC snuck away with a box containing material which could be used to blackmail him.

Please tell me how this encounter was of no "mechanical significance".

And most importantly, please make sure your forward your response to my players, who told me that they greatly enjoyed the encounter last night and thought it was great fun. They apparently need to know that their encounter had no "mechanical significance", and that they should have simply ticked off resources instead and skipped the encounter. That's what you do with things that are insignificant, right?