Why is it so important?

[Imaro]

It's a long thread and I've got limited time. Could you please clarify what it was that you ran into when you played SW Saga? It sounds like it had something to do with resource management and how it affected player choices? And no, I'm not being snarky.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond, I decided to take a break from this thread. My problems wih SW(and they aren't "problems" in so far as the game emulates the genre) isd that...

1. CR's do not line up correctly with PC capabilities. In the book one stormtrooper is a CR 1 challenge(thus supposedly a challenge for four PC's). In actual play it was more like ten to fifteen of these was an actual challenge in a straight up fight. It's great that there are "mooks" in the game but this should be presented to the GM and he should be warned that that's what they are.

2. Jedi use per-encounter abilities, and it takes something like a CR 4 or 5 adversary to actually challenge them...where they really have to make tactical decisions and planning. Yet the abilities of a CR 4 or 5 challenge are such that the chance of death is increased for any one PC exponentially.

3. The Jedi have a "healing ability" that is per-encounter, thus hp's do become a per-encounter resource as well, especially if you also purchase an artificial way for the character's to heal as well. So you have each jedi "healer" who can use Vital Transfer 1 or 2 times per encounter or minute thereafter. This character can heal(depending on his UTF check)...
DC 15=2(character level)
DC20=3(character level)
DC25=4(character level)
and then must suffer half the damage healed in damage to themself. The healer can then use med pacs and Treat injury on themselves to regain the small amount of damage they suffered from using it.(See it's powers like these that make starting with a high UTF skill a good idea.) with an average +2 ability bonus, Skill Focus & Trained skill you start at a +12, so most of the time you're healing the DC 20 or 25 level with every roll.

So, basically(without resorting to increasing the EL artificially) I had either really easy encounters or encounters where, if played intelligently and without fudging someone would probably die. I posted links earlier in the thread from people who had posted about the same issues.

Now people have claimed my party was optimised, but I had two people new to roleplaying games and three that weren't. Perhaps WotC instituted the whole"no more rules mastery philosophy" but then they need to test at a level where most players are competent to above competent.

 

[Jackelope King]

I must take issue with the representation of fantasy novels / movies / fiction in general where the weary heroes need to rest as supportive of the per-day resource model.

Heroes in D&D will nearly never rest because they are "tired": they will rest because their resources have been expended. This is a very important difference. "Tired" in the d20 system is represented by the conditions "fatigued" and "exhausted", which add penalties to physical ability scores to represent a character who has pushed himself too far. Mechanically, a wizard who has expended every single one of his spells is completely identical to a wizard who hasn't cast a single spell in terms of their level of fatigue and "tiredness". If a wizard wanted to run a marathon, it wouldn't matter if he started before or after casting all of his spells for the day (unless he was bent on cheating with magic or somesuch), because he doesn't actually become tired from casting spells. He simply looses the ability to cast those spells over again.

If you wish to focus on this discussion on a very narrow mechanical definition of resources, you should also hold to a very narrow mechanical definition of "tired", which D&D spellcasters specifically don't become from casting spells. Certainly you can add this as a description in your own games (as I do), but it isn't supported mechanically in any way, shape, or form by the per-day resource system and Vancean magic system.

So I'll repeat Hong's request: find a specific instance in fantasy literature which isn't based (either explicitly or implicity) off of D&D magic where heroes rest not because "they're tired", but because "they're out of spells".

 

[wgreen]

The change is being made so that all classes are going to have a mix of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day abilities. Thsi is being done so that playing a wizard is going to allow you to do something "wizardly" in every combat. That's what I out of the new rules, and it sounds like something we will be getting.

Not just something "wizardly," but something effective. If it's just turning "I miss with my crossbow...again" into "I miss with my magic foozle ray...again," I'll be disappointed.

-Will

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Want an easy system to use D&D spells with a quasi-"per encounter" flavour and still have it be a "per day" mechanic in the end? Make every spell cause 1d4 points of subdual damage per spell level (1 point for 0 level spells). At some point, the caster WILL have to rest, and not because he's run out of spells, but because he's close to collapse. If you feel generous, you can add some kind of "drain check" to see if the amount of damage can be halved. That way, a caster can use his magic whenever he wants, until he keels over. Add some feats that allow the casting of (for example) a number of 0. level spells equal to caster level for free, raise subdual resistance, etc. and you're set.

Personally, I think such a system would, for example, model one of the more prestigious D&D wizards, Raistlin Majere, better from what he did in the novels, than the standard casting system. Also, it probably would model a certain range of magic systems from other books as well. Also, you could finally create Shadowrun D20 with proper mages.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So I'll repeat Hong's request: find a specific instance in fantasy literature which isn't based (either explicitly or implicity) off of D&D magic where heroes rest not because "they're tired", but because "they're out of spells".

If you mean that they are unable to perform any further magic, it has been done.

If you mean that they are unable to perform D&D spells in a system that isn't based (either explicitly or implicitly) off of D&D magic, then there is little that can be said politely about such a request.

RC

 

[gizmo33]

So I'll repeat Hong's request: find a specific instance in fantasy literature which isn't based (either explicitly or implicity) off of D&D magic where heroes rest not because "they're tired", but because "they're out of spells".

It doesn't exist (edit: my example doesn't exist, someone else may have one, in any case I'll play along in spite of the fact that you've changed the subject because I don't want you guys to feel bad), and if it did I'm sure it would be irrelevant to Hong anyway (hint, hint). In fact I can't think of a working magic system in any novel either. Perhaps someone who has read more fantasy fiction could weigh in with some pointers about how to make DnD a fantasy fiction simulator.

As far as the "tired" thing goes, I think you're making too much of the differences. Fatigue effects would be hard to keep track of, hitpoints are a crude measure of fatige and a bunch of other things all wrapped into one. Secondly - the kind of spells that the PCs are typically out of are healing spells - thus it's really the presence of healing magic that probably causes the effect you're talking about.

So while we're looking for people resting because they're out of spells, maybe we should look for an instance of people using healing magic on a daily basis - there might be something there.

 

[Jackelope King]

It doesn't exist (edit: my example doesn't exist, someone else may have one, in any case I'll play along in spite of the fact that you've changed the subject because I don't want you guys to feel bad), and if it did I'm sure it would be irrelevant to Hong anyway (hint, hint). In fact I can't think of a working magic system in any novel either. Perhaps someone who has read more fantasy fiction could weigh in with some pointers about how to make DnD a fantasy fiction simulator.

That would be fine. Now you've agreed that D&D's resource system does not serve to really represent fantasy fiction well. We're getting closer to being on the same page

As far as the "tired" thing goes, I think you're making too much of the differences.

I'm not, the d20 system is.

Fatigue effects would be hard to keep track of,

They're essential to track in both True20 and Mutants & Masterminds, and they really are incredibly simple to track. You have the condition Fatigued, you have the condition Exhausted (or 2x Fatigued) and you have the condition Unconscious (or 3x Fatigued or 2x Exhausted)

hitpoints are a crude measure of fatige and a bunch of other things all wrapped into one.

This they can be, especially when broken down into Vitatilty Points/Wound Points, which makes the differences more explicit. But as written, they also require the descriptive text of "being tired", since they don't definitively represent this. However, wizards also don't suffer hit point damage for casting spells, and only the barbarian suffers fatigue from using a special ability (rage), so it still doesn't adequately address "resting because you're tired" vs. "resting because we're out of resources".

Secondly - the kind of spells that the PCs are typically out of are healing spells - thus it's really the presence of healing magic that probably causes the effect you're talking about.

So while we're looking for people resting because they're out of spells, maybe we should look for an instance of people using healing magic on a daily basis - there might be something there.

Sure. Go for it! My only problem is that I haven't had time to read a new fantasy novel in months, now, and I've already got two waiting for me

 

[gizmo33]

Unless he rests for 8 hours, it doesn't count. And as said by M_R, resting because you're "tired" is not the same as resting because your magic mojo has run out.

How nitpicky are you guys going to get and what exactly is the difference between what "counts" and what "doesn't"? If this thread is about you all discovering something or making some interesting point, that's cool, but if if this is some shallow attempt to just be right and continue to change the subject until you are then I don't see the point. Whatever conclusion you wind up coming to at the end of this will probably be rendered meaningless as a result of all this flailing back and forth. Maybe put some of this in context and explain why the per-encounter thing is in itself not an approximation. Do us a favor and find novel that has the hero regain his spells exactly one minute after he stops fighting when it becomes obvious that the example is needed.

What's the significant difference between 8 hours and 7.5? 4 hours? 10 hours? Isn't it possible that some of this stuff are just game approximations for the general notion that you have to rest for some time in order to benefit from the effects. Healing works the same way, it's not like you regain hitpoints continually during the day - the idea that you gain them in a lump some after a fixed amount of time is for convenience and is a close-enough approximation.

Remember, the original statement that started all of this was "heroes in novels and movies never rest, they fight all day". Hong jumps in and tries to defend this statement seemingly by changing the subject where he feels on safer ground. Whatever point he really wanted to make would have been better served by not pretending it was some other point. I've tried to help you guys with your argument because I have nothing to gain by not understanding what you're saying, but it's getting to be increasingly a waste of my time because the conversation is not being had in good faith by all persons. Please try to develop your arguments in ways that someone who doesn't agree with you already can follow them.

If there is an elf character somewhere that is like the elves of DnD (it's not Tolkien) but isn't based explicitly or implicitly (I love that - plausible deniability) on DnD? Aren't there all kinds of elements that are unique to DnD in their particulars. Is there some point or significance to showing that an element of DnD is not found to exist identically in a novel where it was invented independently? Again, what is the point?

 

[Mallus]

Perhaps someone who has read more fantasy fiction could weigh in with some pointers about how to make DnD a fantasy fiction simulator.

I like to call those pointers 'the rules'.

 

[gizmo33]

That would be fine. Now you've agreed that D&D's resource system does not serve to really represent fantasy fiction well. We're getting closer to being on the same page

I haven't agreed, I've said I don't know. I can't even tell you what the magic system is for Wizard of Earthsea - seems to me like this is a huge topic so what's the rush? I don't know how many ribs a person has either - doesn't mean they have a random number. Give RC and others a chance to weigh in on this before you maneuver this to whatever the next stage is supposed to be.