Why is it so important?

[Treebore]

While I agree somewhat with what you're saying, I think any benefit from the level of strategy provided by managing "per day" resources is outweighed by the hindrance of dealing with the 9:00 -> 9:05 adventuring hours problem.

What hindrance does it cause you? I understand the hindrance that the character goes through, but the players just hear "OK you rest for 8 hours then the spellcasters spend an hour praying/meditating/memorizing. Now how do you re enter the lair? Same as before?"

Plus, at higher levels, if everyone is getting th magic they "should" be getting, what are you doing with your wands, staves, rods, scrolls, etc...? I actually spent a lot of time, and money (no XP's, we all agreed spending XP's on scrolls was stupid, same with potions), so I rarely ever ran out of spells due to my scrolls.

So I wonder if people have these problems either because they don't use their abilities to offset these shortages, such as making a lot of scrolls, or another probablility, the DM's aren't giving the players the right depth of resources. IE not enough magic items, not enough money or time to make scrolls or potions, etc...

So I am curious if that is the "real" reason people even have these problems, or if it really is a problem with the mechanics of the system that are guilty.

 

[Treebore]

I'm in favor of "per encounter" abilities because of the reduction in bookkeeping.

What are they replacing? Most of them would be abilities that last about a single combat, or last a single round and "recharge" in about that time. When they overrun that combat it often becomes an exercise in tedium trying to figure out exactly how much time is taking place outside of combat.

How long were you talking to the NPC? How long did it take to search the bodies? How long did walking down the hallway carefully take?

In my opinion, keeping track of these things is boring. Trying to "wing it" on the fly, on the other hand, tends to lead to a very inconsistent game where things vary based on the mood of the DM at the time).

How about things that are "per encounter" that would previously had limited uses per day? Those things that are changed to that format would have had so many that you almost never ran out of them. Moving to "per encounter" reduces the number of things you have to track.

Sure, there are certain things you need to track. Every additional thing you deal with in this fashion reduces the focus on the game, in my experience. You don't really have to keep track of "once per encounter" abilities, most players/DMs will remember when they were used during the encounter. Spread it out over a day with multiple uses and that always isn't practical.

How does that get rid of the need to track? You still mark it off as used. Then have to restore it after the combat. How long did you talk to the NPC? As long as you talked to the DM as the NPC, or two minutes if it was glossed over. How long did you take to search the bodies? One minute per body, divided by the number of PC's searching.

How long did it take to search the hallway, with or without taking 20? Thats covered in the rules.

So how is changing things to "per encounter" really going to change anything? I don't see how with these examples.

 

[Victim]

What hindrance does it cause you? I understand the hindrance that the character goes through, but the players just hear "OK you rest for 8 hours then the spellcasters spend an hour praying/meditating/memorizing. Now how do you re enter the lair? Same as before?"

So I wonder if people have these problems either because they don't use their abilities to offset these shortages, such as making a lot of scrolls, or another probablility, the DM's aren't giving the players the right depth of resources. IE not enough magic items, not enough money or time to make scrolls or potions, etc...

So I am curious if that is the "real" reason people even have these problems, or if it really is a problem with the mechanics of the system that are guilty.

If people can trivially avoid running out of abilities, then why bother including so many limited powers? You might as well make them per encounter if people rest frequently or use charged items (remember that dependence on magic items is supposed to be reduced) to avoid running out.

 

[Glyfair]

What hindrance does it cause you? I understand the hindrance that the character goes through, but the players just hear "OK you rest for 8 hours then the spellcasters spend an hour praying/meditating/memorizing. Now how do you re enter the lair? Same as before?"

It breaks the "suspension of disbelief" when you go in the dungeon, leave, rest for 8 hours, go back in, come back out, rest.

Now, I personally believe that when the PCs do that they should have to deal with repercussions (enemies following them and ambushing them while resting). However, I've heard many comments where DMs have done that and it's ended up in a TPK.

Sure, over time you can train that out of your players. However, that's not why we are sitting at the table. The habit is almost entirely due to the system. Why not just change the system so it doesn't encourage that behavior.

Plus, at higher levels, if everyone is getting th magic they "should" be getting, what are you doing with your wands, staves, rods, scrolls, etc...? I actually spent a lot of time, and money (no XP's, we all agreed spending XP's on scrolls was stupid, same with potions), so I rarely ever ran out of spells due to my scrolls.

A lot of people, DMs and players, feel that this reliance on magic items is the big weak point in D&D. They want the game to focus on the characters more, and less on how much stuff they have to cover the weak points in their character (such as limited uses per day).

Fortunately for this group, WotC is definitely aiming to fix this. Reliance on charged items is one of the things they have specifically stated they want to change with 4E.

 

[Doug McCrae]

James Wyatt explains the issue thusly:

See, in 3e there's a basic assumption that an encounter between four 5th-level PCs and one CR 5 monster should drain away about 25% of the party's resources, which primarily translates into spells (and primarily the cleric's spells, which determine everyone else's total hit points). What that actually means is that you get up the morning, then have three encounters in a row that don't reallly challenge you. It's the fourth one that tests your skill—that's where you figure out whether you've spent too much, or if you still have enough resources left to finish off that last encounter. Then you're done. So basically, three boring encounters before you get to one that's really life or death.

It kind of makes sense, mathematically. The problem is, it's not fun. So what lots of people actually do, in my experience, is get up in the morning and have a fun encounter: there are multiple monsters that are close to the PCs' level, so the total encounter level is higher than their level. There's interesting terrain and dynamic movement. Sometimes there are waves of monsters, one after another. Whew! It's a knock-down, drag-out fight that could really go either way. And it's fun!

 

[Glyfair]

How does that get rid of the need to track? You still mark it off as used. [/Quopte]

As I stated, it's not needed. I can remember what I used during a combat (and what my players did). I can't remember how many times an ability was used over a day with multiple encounters without tracking them.

As for time...where is that sheet? No, that's my spell sheet, that's not it. No, that's the note the DM gave me with the next clue. Oh wait, it slid under the battlemat.

Then have to restore it after the combat. How long did you talk to the NPC? As long as you talked to the DM as the NPC, or two minutes if it was glossed over. How long did you take to search the bodies? One minute per body, divided by the number of PC's searching.[/Qupte]
When I'm in character, I'm not looking at my watch. I don't really know how long the conversation took with any degree of accuracy. That's compounded when I have to give non-interactive information to PCs in the middle of the encounter ("you know that ...." or "you notice that his...."

So, you have it take one minute to search the adventurer with 7 sacks, pouches, bags of holding, hidden compartments and the same one minute to search the ogre with a loin cloth and club?

How long did it take to search the hallway, with or without taking 20? Thats covered in the rules.

Which requires knowing how many 5 ft. squares the area they are searching is. That's time spent calculating that, especially for irregular areas.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

IMC, I am thinking of letting Wizards have the at will ability, but not the per encounter. I am also thinking of just using the 3.5 magic system and letting them have the at will abilities. I like the Vancian system(even if our group does not really follow it) and I am a little sad to see it go.

I am sorry if I am a little incoherent, I took some Bendadryl earlier, so I am a little out of it right now.

 

[Merlion]

What hindrance does it cause you? I understand the hindrance that the character goes through, but the players just hear "OK you rest for 8 hours then the spellcasters spend an hour praying/meditating/memorizing. Now how do you re enter the lair? Same as before?"

Plus, at higher levels, if everyone is getting th magic they "should" be getting, what are you doing with your wands, staves, rods, scrolls, etc...? I actually spent a lot of time, and money (no XP's, we all agreed spending XP's on scrolls was stupid, same with potions), so I rarely ever ran out of spells due to my scrolls.

So I wonder if people have these problems either because they don't use their abilities to offset these shortages, such as making a lot of scrolls, or another probablility, the DM's aren't giving the players the right depth of resources. IE not enough magic items, not enough money or time to make scrolls or potions, etc...

So I am curious if that is the "real" reason people even have these problems, or if it really is a problem with the mechanics of the system that are guilty.

Remember also that many people dont want to rely on magic items for various reasons, and that in 4e magic items are to be de-emphasized. Which more or less means character abilities must compensate.

I dont say this in a derogatory way, but it sounds to me as if you are mostly just implying that people who favor per-encounter abilities are in some way lazy or the like. As has been mentioned, people have had issues with the Vancian fire and forget system pretty much always, especially as it pertains to wizards...it tends to create frustrating and unfair situations in play.

 

[Andre]

So I am curious if that is the "real" reason people even have these problems, or if it really is a problem with the mechanics of the system that are guilty.

IMO, it's not a problem with the system - but for my group, it's just not fun. Hence, we changed the game to suit our preferences. There's no "right" answer here.

Consider it in this light. Imagine we have a new barbarian class. The class has two primary options - it can wield a dagger (with no strength bonus) or light crossbow all day. And a limited number of times per day, it can rage, which does enormous amounts of damage to various opponents. Oh, and if you have the right mix of items, you can rage a bit more often.

Would that really be more fun than the current barbarian?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I am curious as to why people like the idea of having "per encounter" abilities and such.

I personally like the challenge of selecting the best spells, and the challenge of not biting off more than we can chew, and having to back up and rest. Plus knowing when you should back up and rest.

So why do people think its better to get rid of that? Why is it better to make these issues go away? Why take away that depth of challenge?

I'm fine with changing the requirements for how long of a rest is required, I am fine with changing the requirements for memorizing and praying for spells. However I don't get why getting rid of such requirements almost completely adds to the game?

It's all about the 15-minute adventuring day for me. If you're going to reduce the downtime between encounters from 8 hours, why pick any value larger than zero, if what you're trying to do is just get the PCs to the next encounter? Use HP for the daily endurance limit, and let every combat be punchy and exciting.