Why is Min/Maxing viewed as bad?

[Psion]

Sorry but the evidence proves the contrary

What evidence would that be?

You may be new to gaming fora, but you really need to trust me when I say that outside of the most elitist self-backpatting circles, bandying the term "roll playing" about like it was new and clever will instantly create an air of elitism in your posts that you do not want associated with you.

It goes even further than that, really. Personally, someone contacted me in an email last week about getting involved in my game that dared to invoke that term. It immediately led me to the suspicion that he was going to be the sort of judgemental and difficult-to-get-along-with player that I did not want in my game.

You may persist in using whatever terms you please, I can't stop you. But you need to trust me when I say it does not paint a good image of you.

 

[Hussar]

fWitch - I've gone completely the other way. I dislike intensely stat-rolling because of the obscene bohemoths that people usually roll up. And, IME, when the player rolls a 27 point character, he or she whines until they get a reroll. It just throws the game so far out of whack when one PC has a 56 point character and the others have 32, just because of the luck of the dice. OTOH, I do play a 32 point buy game, so it's not like my lot are pansies.

I would NEVER complain about any player using any option from the game. If the choice is there, then they should be able to take it. If you don't want that particular option in your game, that's groovy, remove it. But, don't whine when players make the best characters they can. Adventuring is dangerous. I fully expect PC's to be created with that in mind.

 

[Psion]

Well for starters, it's a RPG,
not a video, or board, so you can see the type tends to make all the difference

Yes, that's very nice. But since in my next sentence I say that focussing on the word "GAME" isn't informative either, sort of besides the point. Do you care to digest the rest of the post you quoted?

 

[Goblyn]

Not to hijack the thread but I don't play with DMs who insist on 28 point buys I dislike point buys because I think it is a real killer when it comes to being able to create creative different characters at lest that is how I have seen it. I think min/maxing is far more encouraged with point buy then with rolling.

I can honestly say that I really like both methods(point buy vs rolling) of generating stats. With pooint buy I can make who I want. With rolling I got find out what blast it was to play a character with a Str 6 and Con 2.

If I can ever offer gaming advice, it's Str 6, Con 2. Try it. It's awesome.

 

[librarius_arcana]

With those ability scores, you wanted to make an educated noble knight. Good. High Int, High Cha. You wanted a social character, so you maxed your social attibutes, to the detriment(because you could have put the high scores there) of the physical attibutes. This is what I see as min/maxing. Maybe it is not so extreme as the views of others and thus my wondering why it is such a contentious issue.

Thats not M/M not if your reason for doing so is character/story/setting based,

M/M is when you don't care about the character or setting etc, but just trying to get the most out of the system

One plays the system,

The other the Game

 

[Elf Witch]

With those ability scores, you wanted to make an educated noble knight. Good. High Int, High Cha. You wanted a social character, so you maxed your social attibutes, to the detriment(because you could have put the high scores there) of the physical attibutes. This is what I see as min/maxing. Maybe it is not so extreme as the views of others and thus my wondering why it is such a contentious issue.

Exactly and if I wanted a combat moster I would have done my stats different. Everybody min/maxes to some degree and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think the whole issue is more about what exactly is min/maxing, powergaming, munchkinism.

I think because these terms are subjective we end up not being able to really get across what we are saying.

For example if my min/maxing you mean building your character to do what you want it to do then there is really no problem or issue that I can see.

But if by min/maxing you mean building a character by cherry picking and using different prestige classes with no thought as to the setting and what is appropiate to that setting or using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit of the rules. And if you make a character that justs ruins the fun then yes that can be an issue.

But just using the term min/max is not really helpful unless we also know just what you mean by min/max.

 

[Goblyn]

Thats not M/M not if your reason for doing so is character/story/setting based,

M/M is when you don't care about the character or setting etc, but just trying to get the most out of the system

One plays the system,

The other the Game

But that's just it. If you do THAT, for whatever reason, it's M/M. I think the difference here is that what you call M/M is what I call powergaming, assuming one's trying to get the most (power for their character) out of the system.

Do you agree? Disagree?

 

[librarius_arcana]

Yes, that's very nice. But since in my next sentence I say that's not accurate either, do you care to digest the rest of the post?

My point was that if you try to lose focuc or ignore the most basic element of this, that this is an RPG instead of just any other game etc, you not only try to make this a more foggie issue, but worse intentionly confusing

We are talking about RPG's not any other type of game,

A game about Characters, Hence the "Role"

 

[Goblyn]

Exactly and if I wanted a combat moster I would have done my stats different. Everybody min/maxes to some degree and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think the whole issue is more about what exactly is min/maxing, powergaming, munchkinism.

I think because these terms are subjective we end up not being able to really get across what we are saying.

For example if my min/maxing you mean building your character to do what you want it to do then there is really no problem or issue that I can see.

But if by min/maxing you mean building a character by cherry picking and using different prestige classes with no thought as to the setting and what is appropiate to that setting or using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit of the rules. And if you make a character that justs ruins the fun then yes that can be an issue.

But just using the term min/max is not really helpful unless we also know just what you mean by min/max.

You are right here. I think that is the reason for these spirals into vehement oblivion: the fact these terms do not have agreed-upon definitions. I think I mentioned as much quite a bit upthread.

The bolded part of your post are words picked straight from my brain; it is likely an inabilty of mine to convey meaning well.

Yay.

 

[librarius_arcana]

But that's just it. If you do THAT, for whatever reason, it's M/M. I think the difference here is that what you call M/M is what I call powergaming, assuming one's trying to get the most (power for their character) out of the system.

Do you agree? Disagree?

It's all about the reasons for doing so,

that really is the crux of the issue