Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

[Micah Sweet]

For my part? I'm absolutely fine with one of my players having outright at-will constant flight. I've played Hackmaster plenty.

I don't mind a game with a pixie fairy flying around the entire time, bypassing traps and hazards, finding ways to aggravate enemies, and adding an additional layer of complexity to the game. It's -fun- to allow that and have that at the table. Because the REST of the party still has to get across (usually)

But from a game design standpoint it does make sense to limit things, somewhat, because of the aforementioned points.

For -my- part..? I'd have gone a different way to limiting the power of flying characters by instead:

1) Make carrying stuff really hard.
No bulky items, half carrying capacity, can only carry a willing creature of your size within your weight limit or a smaller creature that is unwilling.

Doesn't really mess up Sneaks and Casters, but we'll get to them soon. It does mean that your flying character can't swoop-n'-drop enemies as a common solution. It also means flying characters can be martial types, but probably won't be the party's pack-mule.

2) Stealth is so hard, you guys.
Disadvantage on stealth checks while flying.

Wingbeats make sound. Constant sound. You can stand still to avoid making noise but hovering still requires lift. Add on any kind of armor and equipment getting jostled by the motions... it's rough. This brings down the utility of constantly flying sneakytypes and casters since they're basically announcing where they are through big wingbeats, humming from their fairy wings, or the wooshy noises that accompany spells keeping you aloft. A flying sneakytype can still use flight to get somewhere to hide, but it's hard to stay hidden while flying.

3) Smallbois only
No medium or large flying heritages.

This alone would stop a lot of shenanigans and weirdness while also creating an expectation for flying characters. Of course a medium or large creature can cast spells that grant flight, but it wouldn't be innate. Though the above two penalties would apply to a character using flying magic.

"Deeper" does not mean "Unbalanced"

Flight carries a lot of perks. Having some downsides to at-will flight to keep flying characters in line with characters who don't have flight while also helping to avoid Narrator overwork is not "Less Advanced" somehow.

The downsides you described make a lot more sense than arbitrarily limiting it like we have now. Making sense is my priority.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A dramatic sigh and a hefty reminder that this is going to be the squishiest party ever.

They're pretty good at remembering to sneak around--I just have to hope that they remember running away is an option.


Exactly! At most a party is going to have one, maybe two flying PCs. If everyone in the party can fly, then the Narrator might want to shift to a sky-based game going on, with cloud cities and flying monsters, or at least creatures riding flying monsters, and sky-based exploration challenges.

I don't really think that flying would trivialize exploration as much as people fear it would.

If the party is on a journey, then a flying PC takes the Scout option, leaving the land-based party to do other things. If they use flying to get around exploration challenges, that's also written into the rules--they don't get the XP and they miss out on any potential boons.

At most, the flying person might get advantage on some Scout checks, if the ground below is particularly open, like a desert or grassland. But likewise, they would get disad if the ground was covered, like with a forest.

This is why I like your design work.

 

[lichmaster]

Your points 1-3 make for excellent "patches" if one is concerned with at will, permanent flight.
I do like to have a systemic view, though, so I'd like many of these considerations to apply to monsters and the campaign in general. Point 3 would mean that many big flying creatures can do so only for limited time (dragons, manticores etc), and I'd LOVE it.

"Deeper" does not mean "Unbalanced"

Flight carries a lot of perks. Having some downsides to at-will flight to keep flying characters in line with characters who don't have flight while also helping to avoid Narrator overwork is not "Less Advanced" somehow.

I totally agree with this. Also, getting hit and eventually unconscious when flying tends to be really, really bad!

 

[grimmgoose]

To me the main positive is, "beings with flight make sense in the world and are consistent with other creatures with flight from a similar source".

That's fine if that works in your world. It's also fine if the GM doesn't want to deal with it, or they don't have a world where flying beings are common.

For me, the juice isn't worth the squeeze; thus, I don't allow it in my games.

 

[lichmaster]

Mechanics idea: the basic flight endurance is equal to x time con score (hours)
Larger creatures, heavy burden (armor as well) significantly increase how quickly the endurance drains.
Once endurance is below a certain threshold one risks getting fatigue levels. Short rests allow for partial recover

 

[xiphumor]

Mechanics idea: the basic flight endurance is equal to x time con score (hours)
Larger creatures, heavy burden (armor as well) significantly increase how quickly the endurance drains.
Once endurance is below a certain threshold one risks getting fatigue levels. Short rests allow for partial recover

Ya know, there really is something here about making flight mechanics linked to size and universal across PCs and monsters. Tentatively adding it to my wishlist for A5e2

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Tentatively adding it to my wishlist for A5e2

...a6e...?

 

[Rebel Mage]

...a6e...?

Level Up 2nd Edition: Even More Advanced 5th Edition

 

[Distracted DM]

I see that point, but it is too rooted in gamism for me, and this too verisimilitude-breaking, to accept it. If I have a flying PC, I take that into account. The noncommittal isn't really messed with much anyway unless the entire party has wings.

Like I said, there are many reasons that it's not a problem- but those are the easy answers on why it is.

But if one character has flight in a party, I can be sure that as far as bypassing challenges the flyer is going to be ferrying their party members all over. That's where having more actual rules for it would be useful, like those that @Steampunkette provided. But we don't have those.. as far as we can tell, it's no problem at all for a character to be lifting and carrying party members over obstacles; at least, in non-combat situations.

 

[noodohs]

For my part? I'm absolutely fine with one of my players having outright at-will constant flight. I've played Hackmaster plenty.

I don't mind a game with a pixie fairy flying around the entire time, bypassing traps and hazards, finding ways to aggravate enemies, and adding an additional layer of complexity to the game. It's -fun- to allow that and have that at the table. Because the REST of the party still has to get across (usually)

But from a game design standpoint it does make sense to limit things, somewhat, because of the aforementioned points.

For -my- part..? I'd have gone a different way to limiting the power of flying characters by instead:

1) Make carrying stuff really hard.
No bulky items, half carrying capacity, can only carry a willing creature of your size within your weight limit or a smaller creature that is unwilling.

Doesn't really mess up Sneaks and Casters, but we'll get to them soon. It does mean that your flying character can't swoop-n'-drop enemies as a common solution. It also means flying characters can be martial types, but probably won't be the party's pack-mule.

2) Stealth is so hard, you guys.
Disadvantage on stealth checks while flying.

Wingbeats make sound. Constant sound. You can stand still to avoid making noise but hovering still requires lift. Add on any kind of armor and equipment getting jostled by the motions... it's rough. This brings down the utility of constantly flying sneakytypes and casters since they're basically announcing where they are through big wingbeats, humming from their fairy wings, or the wooshy noises that accompany spells keeping you aloft. A flying sneakytype can still use flight to get somewhere to hide, but it's hard to stay hidden while flying.

3) Smallbois only
No medium or large flying heritages.

This alone would stop a lot of shenanigans and weirdness while also creating an expectation for flying characters. Of course a medium or large creature can cast spells that grant flight, but it wouldn't be innate. Though the above two penalties would apply to a character using flying magic.

"Deeper" does not mean "Unbalanced"

Flight carries a lot of perks. Having some downsides to at-will flight to keep flying characters in line with characters who don't have flight while also helping to avoid Narrator overwork is not "Less Advanced" somehow.

You criticize me for punishing the player's fun, but these are far, far more anti-fun than anything I've proposed. There are certainly some logical restrictions to be had regarding carrying capacity and what not, but in a game where planars exist, limiting size makes no sense. Instead, you could just say that the larger the character,cthe larger the wings. If the passageway is too narrow, no flight. I really think you are overestimating the perks that flight carries. I think I used it like once in a two-year campaign, it really is not as useful or gamebreaking as people think.