Why is preventing psioninc DC augmenting bad?

[Thanee]

They keep low-level powers viable. And because there are some low-level powers that become the core of the psion's arsenal, those low-level powers need to be viable.

Yep. And many powers do not exist in their higher versions, since they are augmentations of lower-level powers. So fiddling with the augmentation is probably not the best approach to achieve whatever it is the OP wants to achieve, since it just creates other issues.

If you're a Wizard, you just replace your weak magic with better magic -- Invisibility to Improved Invisibility, * Person to * Monster, etc. This works because you have a lot of possible spells to know (and if you're a sorcerer, you can just "upgrade"). The spells are designed to replace each other.

Yes and no. The Wizard faces another problem here. While there are shiny new spells which do all things better at higher levels, the lower level slots are still there and should also be useful for something, so there also need to be low level spells, which are useful at high levels for them.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Razz]

I don't understand what is wrong with boosting DCs for spells and powers.

Have any of you seen the saving throw modifiers of the monsters out there? Have any of you seen how high players can get their saving throw modifiers even at low-level? Have you seen how many tons of feats, abilities, spells, powers, etc. that can boost your saving throws?

It's enough to make you sick.

No one is going to throw a phantasmal killer at a CR 7 devil when it's freaking Will and Fortitude is in the double digits and your spell save DC can barely hit 17. No one's ever going to want to throw a spell with a saving throw allowed at ANY creature for that matter, especially Dragons and Outsiders. Not to mention there's a spell resistance you'll have to beat sometimes.

They need to create more ways to boost save DCs and not saving throw modifiers. Take a marilith, for example. It has Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +14 and is CR 17. This is not including the fact a DM could alter the ability scores and give it class levels or extra HD. At 17th-level, your spell save DCs are what? 24 tops for 9th-level? That's a 50% chance of a spell going through for a Reflex and Will not to mention the SR 25 you have to beat too. And that's for your highest level spells, screw bothering with low-level spells. There's practically no point in spellcasting against a marilith unless you feel like shoehorning yourself into getting Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Heighten Spell feats.


This also goes the same for the monsters. It's sad to see a CR 20 monster with an ability that has a save DC below 20 and my players, by then, have bonuses almost to the 30s.

WotC's biggest mistake with 3.5 was saying save DCs were too high and changing it around to avoid stacking save DCs. It should've been vice versa!

 

[Storyteller01]

COnvincing arguements. So what's wrong with having them take a feat to pay extra to augment DC's?

 

[Storyteller01]

What are you hoping to accomplish by removing psionic augments?
-blarg

The DC jacking a player has attempted in the past with psionics, largely since at the time I was ignorant of how the system worked (and may still be).

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I don't understand the problem myself...

Just see it as the way the psionics system works. In jacking up those DCs, you're flying through power points at a horrible speed... If you couldn't do it, then their DC reliant powers would be seriously feeble.

IMO, it's just one of the differences between psionics and magic.

I've found it to be fine. Although Psions do get nasty when they know they can rest after a fight.




Is the player using Energy Missile?

That was the only exception I made. Nerfed the DC increase for it. Changed to be in line with every other power in the book! But AFAIK, that's a house rule.

 

[Psion]

I let it be known that I houseruled psionics so that you couldn't raise the save DC's of a power via the power points. Several responses were along the lines of 'HOLY NERF BAT DICE MAN!!'.


Why is preventing this bad?

Why is this bad? Because at higher levels, you'll never affect anything.

Of course, you should definitely, absolutely use the Complete Psionics nerfs to energy powers that stops the "+1 DC per PP" madness.

 

[Aaron L]

COnvincing arguements. So what's wrong with having them take a feat to pay extra to augment DC's?

What would be wrong with having spellcasters take a feat to automatically scale damage dice on their spells?

 

[Particle_Man]

COnvincing arguements. So what's wrong with having them take a feat to pay extra to augment DC's?

It puts them a feat behind other characters, thus giving the psionic characters less options. Or it shoehorns psionic characters into taking powers that don't have DCs to augment.

You mentioned that you were unfamiliar with psionics rules. ONe important "cap" on psionic power is: Unless a player has the Overchannel feat or is a Wilder, they absolutely cannot spend more points on a power than they have "Caster levels". Another important "cap" is that, if a character has a magic item that gives them points to cast powers, they can choose to use *either* their own points *or* the points from the item to cast a power, but *cannot* use points from both to contribute to the same power.

Perhaps those two rules will help things from getting out of hand.

And yeah, if you want to make the psionic character cry the first day, and be more cautious with their points on the following days, send multiple encounters per day (a good rule of thumb: one more encounter after the psionic character is down to a handful of points on the first day, then 3-5 encouters on a "busy" day).

 

[Bacris]

COnvincing arguements. So what's wrong with having them take a feat to pay extra to augment DC's?

So you want them to pay extra for a better effect and then pay extra for a higher DC?

The reasoning why it's bad is simple:

if you spend more resources, you should get more effect.

For a wizard, you spend a 3rd level slot, you get a fireball. At 5th level, this is 5d6. At 10th level, this is 10d6. All for a 3rd level slot.

For a psion, you spend a 3rd level power, you get an energy cone (since energy ball is 4th level). At 5th level, this is 5d6. At 10th level, this is 5d6. You have to pay 10 pp for 10d6, or the equivalent of a 5th level spell.

What the wizard gets for free (scaling damage), the psion has to pay for. Because the psion is paying more, effectively a 5th level power, it should be treated as a 5th level power, with the save DC appropriate.

now, there are a few "problematic" powers that might need to be addressed - XPH energy missile and XPH energy stun (I note XPH because Complete Psionic reduced their DC augment progression). For all other energy powers, when you put in 2 power points (or the equivalent of another "level" of spell / power, you get 1 DC, or the equivalent of another "level" of spell / power. The cost benefit makes sense.

By making a psion pay for something ELSE that the wizard gets for free, you're likely to introduce resentment.

If the problem is the player, talk to the player, don't nerf the system

Edit: Oh, and regarding Heighten Spell, something to consider is that this only changes the Save DC and effects such as Globe of Invulnerability. The wizard / sorceror / cleric / druid still get the free scaling regardless of using Heighten Spell or not, hence why forcing this on a psion who does not get free scaling is a Bad Idea TM.

 

[irdeggman]

COnvincing arguements. So what's wrong with having them take a feat to pay extra to augment DC's?

Psionic powers for the most part have a much closer range than do their closest equivalent spells.

Most are short to medium and very, very few are long.


Wizards can do more damage froma farther distance so the psions need some kind of a bone here to help ensure that they can do some damage before they get stomped on by the charging raging barbarian.

I do think that there are powers that could use some tweaking to keep them in some eemblence of "balance" but I wouldn't nerf the entire system because a single player pulled a fast one on you.

Remember that there are two important things to always keep in mind when it comes to psionics.

1. You can't put more pp in a power than your manifester level. There are, however ways around that like overchannelling - but they have balancing factors associated with them to keep them in check.

2. Psionic focus. Never, ever underestimate the importance of the balance that the rules on psionic focus impart to the game.

It took me a while (as a player) to grasp the two concepts so that I couldn't accidentally power up my PC when it was not allowed.