Why is Str used for melee attack rolls instead of Dex?

[drnuncheon]

Against opponents in heavy armor, how were these highly dextrous characters -- who surely were hitting their targets most of the time -- getting much if any damage through?

Frequently, they were only getting 1 or 2 points past the armor's DR - but the damage multiplier for cutting & piercing weapons turned that into 3-4 points. When your average person has 10 health, 3-4 is a lot.

There was also the possiblity of called shots, which they were able to make more consistently thanks to their high DEX scores and combat skills.

The only time I recall anyone having trouble damaging their foes was when the twin dagger wielder went up against the suit of animated plate armor (which had DR higher than normal plate and no vitals to target).

J

 

[Piratecat]

I'll try again:

In having this conversation, are you interested in challenging the fundamental linchpins of D&D - design decisions which are not necessarily the "best," but which are considered such a part of D&D that removing them turns the game into something else?

In the mean time, we're definitely in House Rules territory. I'll slide this over.

 

[Rackhir]

To this illogical and unscientific statement, I must reply: "If absorbtion is more a matter of thickness than type of material, then 12" of cheddar cheese will stop a greatsword better than a 1/4" of steel, right?"

This may be somewhat off topic, but I couldn't resist after seeing the comment about cheese. IIRC, in the book "King of the Killing Zone" about the development of the M1 Abrams, they talked about the research that went into deciding on the armor for the tank. Apparently, one of the things they found was that pound for pound Styrofoam made for the best armor. Of course it would have to be about 20' thick and isn't the most durable. So the disadvantages make it not worth while, but I wouldn't rule out the protective qualities of cheese...

 

[Kail]

Implimenting max Dex for armors will not stop Dex from being the best stat if it is tied to melee "to hit". If a fighter wants to be effective under a Dex bonus system, they will have a high Dex. To fully use the high Dex they will wear the lightest armor they can, one that still grants full Dex bonus, and heavy armor will only be used by those with lower Dex scores. Anyone with a low Dex score will be combat ineffective. They will have less AC bonus, lower missle or melee bonus, lower Ref save and will end up in combat without steach to avoid it, or tumble to get into/out of it.

In those "19 out of 20" games where Dex is tied to melee combat, name one where Dex is not the most important combat attribute in the game. In WW games, Dex is the king of all combat. All you need is just enough strength, or in many cases, speacial powers, to do a bit of damage each time you attack. Doing a lot of damage won't be important because you'll hit more often and get hit less each time.

While you have yet to have been convinced as to the ties that exist between strength and melee combat, they are both very real, and very strong. Fast fighters tend to be well conditioned and strong for their weight. Strength in a blow allows for more snap and better midflight control. Strength behind a blow also makes it more difficult to parry away or properly position the body to absorp the impact.

Now the DR for armor issue has a few noticable wholes in it if you are aware of both D&D's concepts and the habits of the majority of players. DR from the D&D prespective already exists for armor. Armor provides a pass/fail DR that eliminates the need to calculate how much damage the armor actually took, and how much really passed on to the character. "To hit" in D&D means to inflict damage in a way that causes the loss of hit points, it is not a litterally landed blow. The pass/fail DR of D&D armor allows for a variety of weapons to come into use in most games. If a litteral DR system was derived, and assuming that characters hadn't been driven totally out of armor, only the heaviest weapons would be seen in any common use. The dagger weilding halfling warrior would become an obsolete concept, unable to contribute meaningfully during combat. Implimenting a penitration rules set that accounts for the various types of weapons and the varied uses of each weapon, as well as a by-pass system adds complexity that is not needed and does not add to the enjoyment of the game for a great many players, and even fewer GMs.

All for now, back to deep lurk.

Kail

 

[med stud]

Just for the record, a high Str character in D&D is never a "slow- moving oaf". He jumps high and long, and he is a good climber. That he climbs well shows that he has a good control of his muscles, while the jumping part shows the explosive quality of the muscles.

That means that every single character in D&D with a high Strength score will have good muscle control and explosive muscles. Both of those attributes are extremely important in a melee combat situation (good muscle control = use the proper amount of force for a swing, explosive muscles = make sure your attacks get the proper force).

Dexterity makes sure you can react fast to a given opportunity and the coordination to place the attack where you want it, but without the explosive response from the muscles, it wont help you very much.

 

[Dark Eternal]

The point I was trying to make is: If out of twenty of the leading RPGs, nineteen of those RPGs use Dex as the primary attribute for attacking with weapons (regardless of whether they're melee or missile weapons), and only one of those RPGs uses Str, then maybe the oddball RPG is more wrong than right in this matter, and not visa versa.

Of course, out of the twenty leading RPGs, the one using STR outsells the other ninteen put together. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

Also (and on a more serious - and accurate - note): The simple fact is that the other nineteen use a different system, with different definitions of things like strength and dexterity. You really can't compare them accurately, because they're not the same thing.

As far as I'm concerned, the D&D system works fine, makes sense, and balances internal far better than the nearly one dozen other systems I've experienced. So I'm sticking with it as is. You, of course, are free to do whatever you want; just don't expect to persuade me that your way is better.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Bring in the physics

To confuse matters rather pointlessly, I humbly submit the following equation:

Acceleration = Force / Mass

The speed of a weapon in combat is determined by its acceleration (since a weapon rapidly changes vectors).

The force of a melee weapon is the application of muscle strength. The mass of the weapon, of course, remains constant.

This suggests that stronger opponents will be faster with their weaponry (and thus hit more often). It is true that skill and precision play an important part in combat (maybe the largest part), but this skill and precision is perhaps better reflected in a character's BAB rather than DEX.

Dexterity seems to reflect the ability to both mentally and physically respond quickly to threats (Reflex saves and Initiative) as well as the increased hand-eye coordination which is of primary importance to missle combat.

In actuality, muscle conditioning improves strength, dexterity and motor skill (BAB). I don't have a problem with dividing DnD's various mechanical bonuses the way the game does. After all, I suspect that it would be impossible for a human to have a 10 Strength but an 18 Dexterity - the two are fundementally linked.