Why Is the Cleric Unfun?

[Raven Crowking]

If someone's cleric is just a healer, the player and the DM are boring.

Another quote worth nicking if I ever update my .sig!

RC

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Turn Undead - is prety darned useful and curiosuly underated for an abiltiy that makes a whole type of monster go "poof".

The problem is that, after a certain point, Turn Undead becomes an unviable action option, since undead HD advance faster than their CR. It's simpler to use it to power feats, or even ignore it entirely.

Brad

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I shy away from clerics until I can figure out if the DM is one of those DMs.

You know the ones who run a world in which your Deity isn't just a god, it's also a boss. And not just a boss, a micromanaging boss that, despite being Neutral Good, is more likely Chaotic Neutral because he/she likes to randomly mess with your granted spells and punish you by stripping away your powers for violating tenets of the relgion that, despite your 9 ranks in Knowledge (religion) you were unaware of.

And that's when you play one, in a totally masochist way?

 

[BiggusGeekus]

You get more plaudits for the score than the assist.

A nice, succinct way to put it. I agree. Sure, there are many people who like playing healers, but the game is set up so that you pretty much have to have one of those people in your group. Not every group is like that.

Healing in-between combats should be available to more classes. Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 did this reasonably well with healing kits. They let you use your heal skill roll as hit points gained, but you had to buy the healing kits or find them as treasure. That identical mechanic doesn't have to be used, but there should be something other than potions to take the burden off the cleric. Wands of cure light wounds see a lot of use in many games, but you still need someone to use the dang thing.

Moving the cure line of spells to Wiz/Sor at, say, +2 spell levels compared to the druid might be a solution. So Wiz/Sor would get cure light wounds as a level 3 spell. Not enough to challenge the healer's specialty, but enough to get the spells on the spell list and allow more classes to heal.

 

[Celebrim]

Doesn't that show the cleric (along with the druid) needs fixing? The class is too good at too many things. It has no weaknesses.

I certainly agree with you about the 3.5 druid, because with the exception of healing it pretty much outshines the cleric at everything. At many levels it literally can out tank the fighter and out blast the wizard. Heck, at certain points it's animal companion can out tank the fighter.

The cleric probably is over powered, but since knocking it down a notch is hard without lossing some of its flavor I'd advocate knocking up a notch the other classes - particularly ones like the fighter that people seldom seem to follow for more than 4 levels and which never starts getting exponentially more powerful in the way many other classes do. I'm not fond of the Bo9S approach to this (make fighters spell-casters) but at least it addresses the issue.

The main area that I concur could be and probably should be addressed in cleric balance is the breadth of cleric spell selection. In particular, they probably shouldn't know all cleric spells. That really works only when you limit thier selection to a single core book. My personal favorite would be to add additional descriptors to the spells that would work something like 'spheres' from 2nd edition so that clerical spell lists would fit the flavor of the class. This would also make an approach like 'Book of the Righteous's 'Holy Warrior' much more general and straight-forward.

However, my point is this: if you can make a good argument that the cleric is too powerful, doesn't have enough weaknesses, and is potentially too good at too many different things, I don't see how you can also make the claim that it is 'unfun' to play.

I can't believe that anyone thinks the Cleric is unfun to play because you have to help someone else sometimes. The cleric is fun to play because you can be so helpful. Sure, you don't always get to be the hero for killing the monster (though sometimes you do), but you do always get to be the hero for pulling someone's stuff out of the fire. Maybe helping people and sharing the glory isn't everyone's thing, but don't tell me the cleric is unfun just becauses it isn't yours.

You get more plaudits for the score than the assist.

That's a good way to put it, but some people like playing 'point guard'. Some people like making the assist, and being a good 'point guard' is not without its glory.

 

[Cadfan]

There are some other, specific things about clerics that lead to a bit of "unfun."

Channeling spells into cure spells is a GREAT innovation in the design of the cleric, but it has a downside. Instead of memorizing cure spells straight up, the character memorizes other, cooler spells instead. Then every time the character casts a cure spell, they have to cross off something else they'd rather have cast.

Psychologically, its not so fun to watch MY awesome spell go away so that you can have YOUR hit points back. Its an additional sour note that wouldn't be there if curing spells were silo'ed off someplace else.

 

[Nate Jones]

A nice, succinct way to put it. I agree. Sure, there are many people who like playing healers, but the game is set up so that you pretty much have to have one of those people in your group. Not every group is like that.

Healing in-between combats should be available to more classes. Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 did this reasonably well with healing kits. They let you use your heal skill roll as hit points gained, but you had to buy the healing kits or find them as treasure. That identical mechanic doesn't have to be used, but there should be something other than potions to take the burden off the cleric. Wands of cure light wounds see a lot of use in many games, but you still need someone to use the dang thing.

Moving the cure line of spells to Wiz/Sor at, say, +2 spell levels compared to the druid might be a solution. So Wiz/Sor would get cure light wounds as a level 3 spell. Not enough to challenge the healer's specialty, but enough to get the spells on the spell list and allow more classes to heal.

Yeah, but at level 5, what you rather do? Cast Fireball once, or do the same trick that the cleric has been doing for the last four levels. Healing 1d8 hp isn't all that enticing when most combat members of your party have between 35 and 45 hitpoints. Especially when it means foregoing doing 5d6 damage to multiple enemies.

 

[Remathilis]

As a cleric-player, I enjoy the role of heal-monkey. Sometimes. I really enjoy being a cleric in a game where there are alternate sources of healing as well (bards, paladins, rogues with UMD, even wizards with limited wish) so I don't have to spend every round casting a cure spell on last-rounds damage recipient.

Hopefully, 4e will spread healing around a bit more so that other classes can benefit from healing without needing a 24/7 cleric to doll out cures...

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Yeah, but at level 5, what you rather do? Cast Fireball once, or do the same trick that the cleric has been doing for the last four levels. Healing 1d8 hp isn't all that enticing when most combat members of your party have between 35 and 45 hitpoints. Especially when it means foregoing doing 5d6 damage to multiple enemies.

EXACTLY!!!!

That's the point. A few sorcerers might take the spell, the wizards won't. But who cares? The idea is to get the spell on the spell list so sorcerers and wizards can use arcane wands of cure light/moderate/serious wounds and other cure spells. During combat the cleric still rules, but now more classes are able to heal effectively out of combat so there's less pressure on the healers. Also, the wizard and sorcerer will be able to do more than just stop bleeding if an ally goes into negative hp and other situational uses of the spell line.

It wouldn't turn the arcane casters into healers, but it would be some relief to the healers so they get to do more.

 

[lukelightning]

Channeling spells into cure spells is a GREAT innovation in the design of the cleric, but it has a downside.

Wouldn't it be funny if converted spells retained some "essence" from the original spell.

Cleric: There, I healed your wound.
Fighter: What the heck! There are &!@**# bugs crawling out of the scar!
Cleric: The spell was originally "Insect Plague"