Why is the WoW influence a bad thing?

[Rechan]

I can imagine that happening to any system, called min/maxing, right? But the difference I see is that wotc DnD rule-sets seems to try and promote it even if not encourage it

The rules assume that your characters have some level of optimization.

A party of a Cleric5, Fighter5, Wizard5 and Rogue5 works as a 5th level party. A party of a Cleric3/Pal2, Sor3/Rogue2, Monk5, and Bard5 does not work as a 5th level party, because they don't have the arcane firepower, the devoted healing, the dedicated tank, or the dedicated trapfinding that an expected 5th level party has.

I've seen the example above where the second party got flattened on a regular basis; the only thing keeping them from a TPK was a Ftr5 in the group who knew the rules and watched everyone's back as they made multiclassing decisions based on "the character" while the DM threw level-appropriate challenges at them. The party regularly got their asses handed to them.

But the thing is, D&D is built as a wargame, so when you don't play a war with the war game, sure, the system is going to punish you.

 

[Rakin]

Then why is it called a Roleplaying game?

All like Screwhead says, it all boils down to what you want out of the game.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[king_ghidorah]

In any case, I posted before on a different thread that I do think that there are some similarities between WoW and D&D4E:

*Defined Party Roles
*Per day abilities changed to per encounter

I may be able to think of others, but it is largely a moot point.

* Defined party roles exist now. They are called character classes. Clerics cast defensive spells and heal; Fighters take damage and have the best armor, but don't do the most damage; rogues are fast and do large damage due to sneak attacks; wizards and sorcerers do ranged damage and have control abilities. The defined roles in WoW and other MMORPGs are derived from D&D, not the other way around.
* Per encounter abilities go back at least to the early-mid eighties when groups started developing spell point systems to replace vancian magic.

Using those two as convincing examples of deep, clear connections to WoW is rather unconvincing, since when I left playing AD&D 1st edition in the 1980s, the reasons were:

* to escape the narrow roles of D&D and
* to have systems that allowed easier and more sensical per-encounter type powers.

These sorts of innovations greatly predate WoW, and are common in non-D&D RPGs. Could it perhaps be that the designers have played a wide number of RPGs, both tabletop and computer, and are trying to incorporate what they consider the best from all into D&D? And that WoW is not the ultimate model for all changes?

 

[Rechan]

Then why is it called a Roleplaying game?

Because you are assuming a role when you play it. But then, FPSes are roleplaying games.

 

[Rakin]

Using those two as convincing examples of deep, clear connections to WoW is rather unconvincing, since when I left playing AD&D 1st edition in the 1980s, the reasons were:

* to escape the narrow roles of D&D and
* to have systems that allowed easier and more sensical per-encounter type powers.

Must ...not...plug....for...it....is....not....forum......couth...

see signature.

 

[The_Gneech]

I dislike the idea of D&D becoming more like WoW, on multiple levels.

Primarily, though, it's because - in absolute terms - I do not like the WoW combat mechanics. They're ok for a videogame, but even in that context, they're not especially original or entertaining. They're just the typical MMORPG mechanics, which came about because of all the limitations of the computer platform - because of all the ways in which MMORPGs can not even begin to handle the (potential) complexities of tabletop play.

The MMO character roles evolved the way they did not because that's the most fun way to play, but because that's the easy formula the designers have found (and doggedly stuck to, ever since the days of EQ) that allows for somewhat "balanced" multiplayer real-time play.

So the idea of D&D moving closer to WoW does leave a bad taste in my mouth - because I don't see why anyone would think incorporating elements from something as primitive (in terms of gameplay) as a MMORPG is actually a good idea.

Well said.

-The Gneech

 

[Rakin]

Hey thats what I've been kinda trying to say the whole time (but only I did it more backwards )

Perhaps next time I should read a whole thread before jumping right in? eh?

 

[king_ghidorah]

Must ...not...plug....for...it....is....not....forum......couth...

see signature.

Oh, there are plenty of systems I later enjoyed... including different versions of D&D. That was 20 years ago, and I was much snobbier about what was the "right" kind of fun to have at the RPG table. In the meantime, I have played a lot of things, and learned that there a lot of very valid ways to play and enjoy RPGs, but that some of them were personally more interesting than others.

I suspect that 4th edition will still be interesting, but I won't pick it up without a group interested in playing. I have plenty of other options that grab my interest right now. My biggest worry with RPGs currently is finding a good introduction for my 9 year old nephew who seems interested in RPGs. I gave him a copy of the D&D basic boxed set from 2006, but I'm still not convinced that I have given him the best place to start....

 

[Rakin]

King I sent you a message through E-mail since I guess the personal messaging is disabled on these forums.

Let me know if you have any questions about the content of the E-mail.