Why is "videogame" a bad word?

[Sejs]

1.) Perfect character combinations. X classes + Y feats = invinicible. New feats/prcs/spells are designed to make your pc uber. Not necessarily munchkin, but uber and unbreakable.

This isn't anything new, and has been around longer than mainstream computer RPGs has. Some subsets of people have always looked for the most effective way to do things. The only difference is that there are more tools available now to work with.

2.) Very Linear plot. A leads to B leads to C. Railroaded epic plots that usually revolves around getting powerful, kicking a bad guys ass, and saving the world.

Heh, speaking from personal experience - dry DMing and railroading has been around longer than video games.

3.) Emphasis on Equipment. PCs have suites of constantly upgrading items. Have a +1 sword? Look for a +2. Can't find one? Buy it! Can't buy it? take a feat and make it yourself...

Sadly, that's a function of the system, for the most part. More so with non-spellcasters. What you can do comes somewhat from you, and in large part from your stuff. This isn't the case in all games. Earthdawn, off the top of my head, is pretty much the opposite. Your abilities come from cool stuff you as a person can do. Your gear, no matter how magical or neato, is just window dressing.

4.) Unkillable PCs. Ressurection and other status removing spells make the PCs unkillable. They don't worry about death, they can "respawn" with a slight penalty (-1 level). Disease, poison, blindness, even lost limbs are temporary setbacks, not cripplings.

This is due in large part to the fact that losing your character, or havin them be crippled permanantly isn't fun, and fun is what the game is all about. Realism takes a back seat to enjoyment, and that's a good thing. There are games where those realistic woes are played up, such as GURPS; broke your arm? Expect it to be out of commission for 3 months unless you know a good medic or happen to be really, really healthy.

5.) EQ lingo. Everquest and other MMORPGs has given us such wonderful terms as tanking, pulling, training, buffs, bossfight, and farming, some of which have leaked into RPG discussion.

*shrug* Language evolves. You know words like assassinate, bedroom, luggage, and torture? Shakespere just made them up because he wanted a word that was appropriate. While alot of MMO-isms can't really be applied properly to tabletop games (monsters don't just magically replenish themselves once you've killed them, so you can't really farm in the MMO sense, for example), some of them can. "Buffs" is a reasonable, concice term for magical enhancement effects, "Tanking" seems just fine to describe your keeping a badguy's attention so he doesn't tear appart the weaker party members. Sometimes it's just easier to say the shorter word, than the whole mouthfull.

6.) Non-Medieval: Much of the art of 3.X is based on a concept of unrealisitic armor and clothing, non-medieval grooming, gnomes and halflings that look cool and adventuresome, non-believable weapons, and "kewl" looking monsters. The idea is to make it look cool, not believable.

It's an aesthetic choice, really. In part because there is a want to make a fantasy game setting feel fantastic rather than mundane, albeit medieval. Another part is due to the fact that a fantasy setting frankly isn't just medieval earth with magic added in. There are development factors that would have always been present in a fantasy setting that wern't there on medieval Earth. We didn't have magic, or a dozen different sentient races, or people who could actually channel the power of their god. If we had, Earth now wouldn't be anywhere near the same.

7.) Occidental/Oriental: Western and Eastern concepts are mixed with little or no thought as to development. Monks and samurai wander with paladins and druids.

True, though again, video games arn't the source. Monks were running around with paladins and druids way back in 1st edition, before EQ was even a glimmer in Brad McQuaid's eye.

8.) Over the Top: The fights are larger, the spells grander, the gear spiker, and the damsels hotter. Everything is on a larger and more heroic scale.

Honestly, I can't say I've seen this one, myself. Heroic roleplaying has always been about kicking ass, getting the girl and saving the day, even back when it involved THAC0, racial level limits, and all weapons doing 1d6 damage. Heh, besides - at least it's not Rifts(tm).

9.) Magic is downright common. There is no real awe or mystery, just a cool factor for bigger and badder spells. Magic is sold in shops on the street. Clerics stand in temples to heal wounds and raise dead.

Depends on the DM and setting, I'd suppose. For the average man, magic is rare and fantastic. For adventurers, not so much. Much as it's always been.


Anyway, just my observations. I don't personally see RPGs as having become more video-gamey. In a way, they've always been video-gamey, and video games have become more like RPGs. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and if it wern't for RPGs pushing as much as they got pulled, we'd never see MMORPGs. We'd still be playing Pong and Chessmaster. Maybe Pong Online; who knows.

 

[jeff37923]

Character sheet=save game

I've actually started collecting the character sheets of players who die in my games. My "Book of the Dead" is now a great source of NPCs and in-game irony. So far, we've had fun with this and nobody has complained.


Funny thing though, I ran a couple of games at the local game store on Saturday - in between RPGs I watched a game being played on the xbox called "Fable" that gave me a few ideas for a DnD adventure or mini-campaign. I'd have to say that the xbox game had LESS of a linear plotline then a few RPGA Living City modules I've played in.

 

[Ourph]

Video game RPGs have essentially 3 things in common.

1. They are total railroads. You cannot deviate from the given plot and something will always happen to keep the "story" moving in the predetermined direction. The plots are usually horrifically contrived and mostly designed to showcase the KEWL boss villain for each level.

2. The only two motivations available to the main character are completing the "quest" and getting more powerful.

3. As a player, you have a certain limited number of options when it comes to what your character can do to resolve any specific situation. If you're trapped in a room, you MUST find the key. If you're faced with a monster guarding a treasure, you MUST kill the monster to get the treasure. etc.

I think the negativity you are picking up on is based on the fact that most people (not all, YMMV) find those types of things acceptable in videogames, but distasteful in RPGs. IMO, the main purpose of P&P RPGs is to allow people to move beyond what a CRPG allows you to do into more imaginative and creative realms.

In a P&P RPG, you CAN deviate from the main plot to pursue other goals. In a P&P RPG, you CAN have a character whose motivations are more complex than following a script and getting better weapons. In a P&P RPG, you CAN come up with creative solutions to problems that aren't limited to a certain number of predefined options. In a P&P RPG, you CAN think outside the box.

Playing a P&P RPG in the same unimaginative, scripted way you would play a videogame RPG just seems like a huge waste of potential, and I would suspect anyone who chose to play that way of being intellectually lazy or just plain unimaginative.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Nothing wrong with Videogames.

There is nothing wrong with video games. They happen to be quite fun. I happen to play what some may term an unhealthy amount of them myself.

However, you have probably noticed that some people rant on about how Story is the important part of a Pen and Paper RPG. And how some people prefer Dungeon Crawls and Hack and Slash.

Comparing the two is like comparing Final Fantasy games to Doom games. That is to say, the comparision of the two is a retarded waste of everyones time and breath.

Some people like Doom 3. Some people like Final Fantasy. In one, you spend alot of time looking at pretty graphics and watching scripted FMVs with little control over what is happening. In the other, you run around dark corridors and shoot stuff, and do not much else. Both are fun. Both are inherently useless in the Hunter / Gatherer sense of the term. One set of fans likes to look down on the other. Neither are worth listening to.

In this context, 'videogamy' probably means one of two things. One possibility is that the game is alot like a Diablo type game wherein your always looking for the next big item, and twinking the hell out of your character, trying to put lots of big huge numbers in the various slots on your character sheet. Another possibility is that the game borrows elements inspired by videogames, like 'save points'.

Use this rule of thumb and no others.

If everyone at the game table is having fun, it does not matter in the least how you run your game.

As long as you follow that rule, and have the food / shelter / basic hygene bits taken care of, the puny arguements of people looking for a pissing contest do not matter.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Darkness]

One possibility is that the game is alot like a Diablo type game wherein your always looking for the next big item, and twinking the hell out of your character, trying to put lots of big huge numbers in the various slots on your character sheet.

Yeah, that's usually it. Especially if you have easy access to tons of magical items, all with differing qualities.

'course, often the game in question actually isn't as videogamey as the person claiming it says.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Of course, there's videogamey players, videogamey DM's, and videogamey games. All of which have different syndromes and things they add to the video aspect of it. Mostly though, video games are close enough in expierence and goal that concepts from them migrate more easily then those from books or movies. This includes good and bad things. This means that there's going to be more crossbreeding of behaviors, and as such, some actions or expectations that are fine for one aren't so good for another.

It's just an easy place to get your signals crossed.

 

[diaglo]

videogames aren't bad.

but playing RPGs like a videogame isn't the mode most people prefer.

CRPG aren't roleplaying games. they are preprogrammed railroad rides.

 

[JoeGKushner]

videogames aren't bad.

but playing RPGs like a videogame isn't the mode most people prefer.

CRPG aren't roleplaying games. they are preprogrammed railroad rides.

Part of the 'disdan' that may pop up is from people who've come to the hobby from video games and treating the RPG like the video game, not really aware taht they are now in control of their character and that the world will react accordingly.

 

[Henry]

I think JoeGKushner and Remathilis have some interesting points when put together. If someone who came to videogames first tries out an RPG and never gets to try it beyond that style of play, they might get bored quickly with it - after all, it's a heck of a lot more work to accomplish the same thing. HOWEVER, when they start playing, that's what they know, and it's what they are comfortable with. Therefore, they will likely change their style as time goes on.

So many of us forget that most of us STARTED with this self-same video-game style - we played to get the +1 sword, and the next character level, because we were young. Same deal now - 99% speaking, those who start young, will play young. As they mature, they inject other elements in their play. This is to say nothing of how the play style comes back around full circle every now and again - witness threads from those players who have gathered with some of their friends to "kick it old-school" every now and again.

For certain, different generations of players will bring their own styles to the games, but we all seem to go through the same cycles. No one out there who has played D&D can tell me they've NEVER in their lives played at least one straight "dungeon crawl" session for fun - and if they did tell me that, I'd suspect them of not telling me the truth.

 

[diaglo]

No one out there who has played D&D can tell me they've NEVER in their lives played at least one straight "dungeon crawl" session for fun - and if they did tell me that, I'd suspect them of not telling me the truth.

i'm dungeon crawling right now

IYKWIMAITYD

diaglo "hong's nice twin" OoT