Why is "videogame" a bad word?

[Numion]

If there was some way to verify this, I'd be willing to bet 100 euros that Baldurs Gate II has a better and more interesting plot than 90% of those DMs games that use videogamey in negative way :\

 

[barsoomcore]

EB: Good points, all, and I certainly favour a reductionist sort of way of comprehending distinctions -- sometimes taking it too far, no question.

But in this case I think where we're disagreeing is really on the side of "Is this distinction important to me?"

To you, it seems, it's not very important, and so for you the differences I'm drawing are slight.

To me they're a big deal. Not because I'm determined to live my life by these principles, but rather because I've noticed time and again that I don't enjoy video games, or indeed most board games, OR jigsaw puzzles. But I love D&D. I wondered why that was. I used to think it was just the competition aspect, but many video games aren't particularly competitive and I'm still not very fond of them, so I've been poking around with my brain to try and figure out what quality it is about these activities that turns me off. And I think it's puzzle-solving. I think that fundamentally I don't get much enjoyment out of finding the "correct" solution to any given problem. And the activities in that list have correct solutions. There are correct plays (as determined by the designers of the system) and incorrect plays. Chess is, from this point of view, the same TYPE of activity as solving a jigsaw puzzle -- just with a very much larger number of options to choose from (8 to the power of 30, it turns out, for the average chess game).

When I play RPGs, I'm not engaging in a more or less complex form of puzzle-solving. I'm not looking to choose a correct option from among a set of those provided. I'm just making up a story with my friends. That story can go ANYWHERE. A chess game can only go towards a draw or a victory/loss combination. It can't go anywhere else. A jigsaw puzzle can only go towards completion or frustrated surrender.

If my friends and I start in on The Sunless Citadel and they decide instead to start a farm, they can go right ahead and do that. Stuff like that. My players (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) have a spectacular ability to decide they want to do things I never saw coming -- and they go right ahead and do them.

The kinds of computer systems we have nowadays can't allow that sort of behaviour. And somehow I seem to be able sense that and it has always turned me off games and activities of that fundamental nature.

Not saying it has to be an important distinction to anyone else. But it is to me.

 

[WizarDru]

There are correct plays (as determined by the designers of the system) and incorrect plays. Chess is, from this point of view, the same TYPE of activity as solving a jigsaw puzzle -- just with a very much larger number of options to choose from (8 to the power of 30, it turns out, for the average chess game).

Well, yes and no. Chess isn't a jigsaw puzzle, in that while there are finite moves and even a finite number of games, it still requires intellgience of some sort to direct the game. If it really could be eliminated to a series of right-wrong choices, then the computer would win every time...and even today, it still doesn't.

A video game can't approach the complexity and ease of such changes of direction in a pen-and-paper RPG for a variety of reasons. It takes a lot of work to develop the system under which the player operates...the worldspace, if you will. A pen-and-paper author doesn't have to know the layout of Death Gorge Dungeon, the stats of evil Lord Cheat or the geography of the Crystalmists until the players get there, if ever. A video game designer doesn't get that luxury, no matter how wide open. The issue is that many games neither want nor desire this sort of thing. One doesn't pick up Halo 2 and hope for an economic simulation of the Covenant's faith-based society...they expect epic first-person combat in a futuristic setting.

If you don't enjoy board games, then it's not terribly suprising you don't enjoy most video games, as they owe more to board games than any other source. Many video game RPGs are actually a hybrid of the two formats, which would only exercabate the problem for you.

 

[barsoomcore]

For those interested in the nature of chess, HERE'S a pretty interesting article on recent developments in computers, chess and human creativity.

I've actually been thinking over the course of this thread that maybe it IS the competition thing, and that in fact computer games are unavoidably competition-based. Dunno if that's true or not, but I'm thinking...

Then there's the whole question of am I right to steer clear of competition?

 

[Patman21967]

Wow

But pretty much ALL of those things we associate as 'videogamey' are also a product of D&D. And WERE before video games became as large as they are now. There's nothing at all wrong with the more hack and slash type games, and though some people obviously don't enjoy it, that IS where base D&D really sits. Kill things. Take stuff. Get more KEWL POWERZ. Repeat. The formula started with D&D, and its still in there. Denying that is turning a blind eye to the heart of D&D.

No offense mi Amigo, but this is exactly the stuff I do not like about the new generation of gamers and games....It is nobodies fault, just the de-evolution of Role-Playing. I ran a game which the players had a time limit to gather the info they need and complete the quest....take a guess at the first 2 things i heard..

1." well, I can figure out what we need to do, because i have a +13 to my gather info" no trying to figure it out in character...this same player said " Ok I go into the tavern and will use my diplomacy skill to try to find out where he is " No questions, to in character chatting up of the bartender...no....to the new generation, all role-playing seems to be is a bunch of numbers on a sheet of paper...again...not all people....and no offense....but you young gamers, and some older ones too...read some fantasy books and see if Elric was black and white...no pun intended

2. " you mean we are not going to be able to rest and regain magic?" Another thing I hate....go into the temple, clear 2 rooms, then want to rest, and be surprised when they go back and the bad guys are ready....RPG's are not static...go into the dungeon, clear out 2 rooms, save, rest, and repeat...I hate that this has become a common practice....I remember being a Mage, having no spells, but still pressing on, because we had to, if we gave the bad guys a chance, our GM played them smarter than our characters alot of time


Again, I do think it is the linear aspect of VG's. What is happening is younger GM's have found themselves influenced by this, thus this is the way the game community is turning....Optimally, it would be supercool if new players would be able to game with longtime GM's, to get the feel of it, instead of most games having less ROLE-PLAYING than your simple BGII game

 

[Patman21967]

Ya think? Lots of people just go into the dungeon/wilderness area of the week that the DM has prepared for them. (An employer/treasure map/whatever will show them the way in most cases.) They then proceeded to clear the area of monsters and traps, take any treasure they find while doing their mission.

Sounds like a crappy GM to me....that is the point...it's a GM's responsibility to TEACH, as well a provide a good game...We older gamers should teach newbies how to think " out of the xbox "

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Sounds like a crappy GM to me....that is the point...it's a GM's responsibility to TEACH, as well a provide a good game...We older gamers should teach newbies how to think " out of the xbox "

How is that crappy GM? What if the GM and the players enjoy that? Its not just newbies that enjoy playing 'simple' games like that. To me, this is the problem with the anti-video game attitude. Its treated as inferior to 'real' roleplaying.

And why are 'video gamey' and roleplaying considered mutally exclusive?

 

[FireLance]

Well, yes and no. Chess isn't a jigsaw puzzle, in that while there are finite moves and even a finite number of games, it still requires intellgience of some sort to direct the game. If it really could be eliminated to a series of right-wrong choices, then the computer would win every time...and even today, it still doesn't.

Actually, from a game theory perspective, chess is classified as a two-player game with perfect information and no randomness. One of the simplest examples of this type of game is tic-tac-toe, also known as noughts and crosses.

Game theory states that there is always an optimal strategy for such games, and if both players adopt the optimal strategy, the game will always end in the same way (although individual games will not necessarily have the same sequence of moves): either one player will always be able to force a win*, or the game will always end in a draw (as is the case with tic-tac-toe). If one player adopts a strategy other than the optimal, he may end up with a worse outcome (e.g. he may lose instead of drawing, or lose or draw instead of winning).

The only attraction for chess is that nobody has discovered the optimal strategy for it yet. And given the complexity of the game, it is likely that nobody ever will. I seem to recall that the total number of possible chess positions is more than the total number of atoms in the universe. If so, no single mind or computer will ever be able to contain the entire optimal strategy.

* A simple example of a game in which one player will always be able to force a win is as follows: There are twenty-one sticks on a table, and two players take turns to remove one to four sticks. The one who picks up the last stick loses. The player who goes second will always be able to force a win if he picks up 5 minus the number of sticks that the first player picked up in his last turn.

 

[Patman21967]

How is that crappy GM? What if the GM and the players enjoy that? Its not just newbies that enjoy playing 'simple' games like that. To me, this is the problem with the anti-video game attitude. Its treated as inferior to 'real' roleplaying.

And why are 'video gamey' and roleplaying considered mutally exclusive?

You are correct my friend, and I apologize...this type of gaming just does not appeal to me. Or thankfully, my friends. I guess I can be what i would call a RP snob, sorta like a beer or wine snob, and think I know what is best. But I think if anyone who enjoys fantasy, would game with ROLE-playing as the focus. rather than ROLL-playing, I just think they would have more fun...but there is the snob again....The reason that the type of gaming that I like is fading, is because of CRPG and VG's. Because the art of " GMing to tell a story, rather than complete a KEWL KWEST is dying out.....and I am scared and lonely....mommy...why does that bad man wear those things on his wrists....He has " carpal tunnel " stay far away

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

You are correct my friend, and I apologize...this type of gaming just does not appeal to me. Or thankfully, my friends. I guess I can be what i would call a RP snob, sorta like a beer or wine snob, and think I know what is best. But I think if anyone who enjoys fantasy, would game with ROLE-playing as the focus. rather than ROLL-playing, I just think they would have more fun...but there is the snob again....The reason that the type of gaming that I like is fading, is because of CRPG and VG's. Because the art of " GMing to tell a story, rather than complete a KEWL KWEST is dying out.....and I am scared and lonely....mommy...why does that bad man wear those things on his wrists....He has " carpal tunnel " stay far away

Nothing wrong with different gaming styles. I actually enjoy both, heavy roleplaying and then sometimes just running through with some mindless dungeon crawling.

Just remember, CRPGs and Video Games didn't create this KEWL KWEST attitude. D&D did. Its all our fault.