Why is/was melee training so bad?

[keterys]

Most people really aren't going to be that worried about getting, say, "Heavy Blade Mastery" or "Axe Mastery" in epic. It only applies to melee attacks, there are other solutions, that's only at epic, and it often requires an inconvenient stat even if you've got one of them.

 

[Mirtek]

Power of Skill can help with that, fwiw.

For a small minority. If you do not select your deity based on offered domains, you're out of luck. I once did the count, IIRC less than 20% of deity choices offer Power of Skill

When did they get it? It was not in PHB 1... (after essentials it doesn´t realy matter... but they should not have it at the first place)

Dragon Magazine Class Acts article, issue 385.

Sonnlinor's Hammer, Wis vs. AC, [W]+Wis damage and penalty to struck enemy's next attack, usable as MBA

Everyone and his dogs get's an at-will usable as MBA these days, it's just a matter of when it finally arrives for your class.

 

[Victim]

You're right. This isn't due to Knights or Slayers. This is due to people trying to build off of one less attribute. They want to be as good as melee classes with STR primary. Those want to be better because they pay with an otherwise less useful primary attribute.

STR has one skill, carrying capacity and MBAs going for it. CON has one skill, hps, healing surges, lots of feats, lots of riders (and is competing STR for Fortitude). WIS has five skills (most importantly, Perception and Insight). All the other attributes have 3+ skills, AC and/or initiative and see plenty of use as a secondary attribute.

Strength also has tons of feats. Every weapon critical feat except bow mastery requires Strength, along with a great many weapon related feats in general.

And, looking at STR based classes, I don't think there's really a case that they're weaker than other classes if you take away OA related benefits. Fighters and melee rangers aren't going to be outclassed by Battleminds and Avengers even if the non-STR classes are getting melee training free.

And did you say that marathon runners don't have high Con?

 

[Garthanos]

What if they give strength something like feats that make it more versatile too like one so that it can apply to intimidate and maybe diplomacy (she likes his muscles)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

For a small minority. If you do not select your deity based on offered domains, you're out of luck. I once did the count, IIRC less than 20% of deity choices offer Power of Skill
Dragon Magazine Class Acts article, issue 385.

Sonnlinor's Hammer, Wis vs. AC, [W]+Wis damage and penalty to struck enemy's next attack, usable as MBA

Everyone and his dogs get's an at-will usable as MBA these days, it's just a matter of when it finally arrives for your class.

And i just won´t allow Dungeon magazine content if it is that contrary to design principles... (Clerics melee are based on strength)
But after essentials this power can be seen as forward compatible...

 

[Mirtek]

And i just won´t allow Dungeon magazine content if it is that contrary to design principles... (Clerics melee are based on strength)

And you're the judge of what makes design principles as opposed to the staff reviewing and editing Dragon content? The power could have just as likely appeared in Divine Power 2. After all Martial Power 2 gave Dex-Rangers a melee attack (although it's not an MBA).

But after essentials this power can be seen as forward compatible...

What does essentials change at the PHB1 classes that makes it suddenly OK?


Back to topic, which non-str class yet lacks and at-will usable as MBA? Quite a lot received one already

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The melee cleric is based on wisdom... so it´s just ok.

MP2 also threw over some design principles... as you say: dex based hybrid melee ranger... i don´t like it that much, as a strength/dex ranger with low wisdom actually worked...

The marauder build is actually much more interesting, as it uses heavy thrown weapons that key off strength.

Ok, back to the point: ranger and clerics were v-shaped classes, that functioned well enough. Essentially the strenght cleric functioned great, as wisdom, the primary of one build, functioned as the secondary of the second.
So a Strength/Wisdom cleric was very viable, and Wisdom/strength with a little bit charisma mixed in too. So there is either no need for a wisdom based MBA with an aditional kicker, because you are focussed on range, or there is no real need, as all other melee powers are strength based.
Having a wis/cha based MBA heavily steps on the strength/Wis clerics toes. So now there is the new warpriest build that uses wisdom/con. Now I can accept, that this build could use a MBA with a very minor kicker. Sounds like a good tradeoff beteen other at-wills power (because of matching the secondary stat) and a slightly enhanced MBA.

Edit: and yes, unless something has been in a printed book and survived one or two rounds of errata I as the DM may disallow feats. There are actually some very bad things out there (Hide armor expertise for barbarian, avenger multiclass feat that allowed a battlerage vigour fighter to deal damage that was unreal, which i have seen in actual play... because i allowed it for one session because i was 100% sure it won´t survive errata and told it my brother before he took it...)

Saying no i a skill you have to learn as a DM. And saying no to most of the articles other hobby designers write, is no bad thing. Githzerai blademaster is also a feat i won´t allow... even though it followed a PHB 1 design principle that will hopefully get a bit overhauled in essentials.

 

[Mirtek]

The melee cleric is based on wisdom... so it´s just ok.

And even if he were still based on Str it would be a fundamental error to give the Wis-Variant a good MBA? Are you also banning all heavy thrown weapon since those who dump Dex don't deserve an MBA (incidentally they extra made a heavy thrown hammers usable as a holy symbols to cater to Str-clerics)

With all the usable as MBA at-will's we're seeing it looks as if they checked off the "no str no good MBA" as one of the sins of their youth and are moving forward to provide one to each class.

Actually IIRC someone got the answer "be patient" upon complaining that adding a Wis-based MBA to cleric was also adding insult to injury against avengers. So even if it's not part of tomorrows Power Play, I have no doubt that this power will see the light of day sooner or later.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What if they give strength something like feats that make it more versatile too like one so that it can apply to intimidate and maybe diplomacy (she likes his muscles)

Well, maybe intimidate. It wouldn't hurt, in a balance sense, to give away the advantages of other stats the way one of the advantages of STR has been.

It would hurt in the sense of differentiating characteristics - and thus classes and, ultimately, characters.

If everyone has the same MBA because they all took Melee Training or some MBA-useable at will, and all have the same Intimidate because they took some feat that let whatever stat fill in for that, and all have the same bonus to hps and surges through various backgrounds, and the same perception and insight, and defenses across the board, etc, etc....

 

[tuxgeo]

Back to topic, which non-str class yet lacks an at-will usable as MBA? Quite a lot received one already

I haven't seen one for the Bard yet.

On the other hand, non-human Bards might still not be willing to take such an At-Will attack power even if one were available, preferring to take Misdirected Mark to target the Reflex defense and either Cutting Words or Vicious Mockery to target the Will defense, and rely on Melee Training to get a worthy to-hit chance against AC -- since non-humans get only two At-Wills.
Other non-STR classes could appreciate the same solution: one At-Will to target REF, one to target WIL, and use MBA to hit AC.

Also, there is one more reason to have a good MBA that has not yet been stated explicitly in this thread (as far as I can tell): ranged casters with adjacent enemies might want a good MBA to hit without provoking OAs. Specifically, that Bard I suggested above might have high enough AC to just stand there and fight, but might not want to have to face additional attacks while doing so; and a good MBA would help with that.