D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

[Stalker0]

It’s been a long time, but didn’t 1e use different ranges for indoors an out? Like an inch of range was feet inside, and then yards out? Or was that just for spells.

Not sure, but the ranges I found were specifically noted in feet, not in "battleboard terms"

 

[TheSword]

this is where rogues and rangers come in. Every class has their niches, though modern DND keeps trying to remove them and make everyone the same. In real world combat you either suffer the damage of closing the gap, or you circle round or sneak up. Why should your DND game be different.

Because it’s not fun.

For the other players or for the DM

 

[Reef]

Because it’s not fun.

For the other players or for the DM

Which is why I maintain the DM shouldn’t put encounters on large featureless plains unless they are intentionally doing so to create a puzzle situation that needs to be solved differently. To shake things up, which is always a good thing to do once in awhile.

Even changing bows to a max of 200’ (as @Stalker0 suggests) wouldn’t solve that issue if both sides want to turn it into a longbow fight. The melee characters will still have to dash at least three rounds, and the spellcasters nearly as much. So unless you want to nerf bows down to 100’ or less, the problem isn’t the weapons.

 

[Hussar]

4e its 200 feet.

Also found this old 1e basic box set book, and the longbow is..... 210 feet. (Page B27 if you want to check yourself). The crossbow is interestingly enough the longest range there at 240 feet.

https://ia902509.us.archive.org/34/items/adventure-creature-crucible-pc-4-night-howlers_202204/Accessory%20Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%201%20Basic%20Box%20Set.pdf

And moving to 2nd edition (page 146)

Dungeons and Dragons, Second Edition, All 26 Books : Gary Gygax : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Entire collection of all 26 AD&D Second edition books Index:Player's Handbook: 1Dungeon Master's Guide: 578Monstruous Manual: 1045Complete book of Dwarves:...

archive.org

Longbow is.....210 feet, 240 for the crossbow. And technically those are for flight arrows, used for hunting. the book notes that the "arrows used for war" have a range of 170.


Now this isn't every single slice of old school dnd, but it seems that the "insane bow ranges" didn't start until 3rd edition, was corrected back in 4e to old school values, and then pushed back in 5e.

Looking at the link you provided, I believe you made a mistake. The top of the chart states that the ranges are in yards, not in feet. So, a flight arrow goes 210 yards and a sheaf arrow does 170.

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, that’s hardly a battlefield where exact positioning at extreme range matters. Does it matter if a monster is 505’ away or 510? So I don’t see why the battle grid would need to cover every 5’ of that scene.

Wait, this is the other discussion, isn’t it? The bow one instead of the grid one? Or have they merged? Not being facetious, I’m seriously getting confused as there seems to be multiple branches here.

No I don't think it's a different topic because it's central the reason why the gm starts looking sketchy if it's not still basically what it should be, (I.E. "sprawling, nigh featureless, tracts of land as far as the eye can see") It's not fun & jarringly obvious

 

[Hussar]

Never seen open plains before?

View attachment 283589


Don't let our modern cities and boxed in houses fool you, there are tons of areas on earth that are sprawling, nigh featureless, tracts of land as far as the eye can see.

Or we could just take from our own DMG, I quote:

"
Chapter 8 of the DMG; Visibility Outdoors:


So yes, in many types of terrain, 600 feet is frankly a short distance to see other things.

Note that that picture is CUT grass right? You can pretty clearly see that that grass is cut.

Even modern infantry warfare very, very rarely begins engagements at 200 yards. Effective range for an M-16 is 300 yards and most combat occurs at much, much shorter ranges than that. Armored combat and of course airplane combat is a whole different beast. But infantry combat? 100 yards or less most of the time.

Heck, look at the sites of pre-modern battles. Most of them aren't a whole lot bigger than a football field. Some, sure, agreed, they are bigger and I'm sure that people will furiously type examples at me. But, in general? No, combat is very, very rarely occurring at those kidns of ranges.

 

[Reef]

No I don't think it's a different topic because it's central the reason why the gm starts looking sketchy if it's not still basically what it should be, (I.E. "sprawling, nigh featureless, tracts of land as far as the eye can see") It's not fun & jarringly obvious

I seriously am sorry you have players that would call you sketchy for that.

But if you need exact positioning for a group 100’s of feet away, I don’t see why you can’t do as suggested above and just draw a line in the middle of the map which indicates there’s 200’ between the two halves. That lets you have exact positioning without having to map out every single tree in between.

And again, I am confused what you want. It seems to be the 5’ square you don’t like, but you are resisting scaling up the square scale. Is it the vision range? If so, players will probably be rightly upset if they are unrealistically blinded.

What exactly are you looking for? Plainly and as simply as you can. Just so we all are on the same page.

 

[the Jester]

Again we are coming back to the same argument of "well you really shouldn't be having encounters at those ranges".

I just can't agree with that. There are times when an encounter should be at range, by virtue of the in world logic of the situation. The pcs are moving toward an enemy army that can see them coming? A band of archer bandits encounters the pcs along an open road? Yeah, long range is happening. It's the logic of the world, and arbitrarily taking away the option is too big of a concession against the game reality for my tastes.

If one side is badly outclassed at range, that side ought to either close the distance, evade the encounter, or seek cover as quickly as possible. This might give the archer pc or other long range experts a chance to shine.

It's the mirror of encounters that take place in cramped quarters where the pcs with multiple attacks can really shine, where things are too cramped for AoEs and it's hard to keep the squishy pcs safe from harm because the bad guys are all up in there with the pcs.

And I agree! Which is why the simplest way to communicate to the DM and players that encounters should not happen at those ranges....is to remove the range! If the longest range thing in the game is 200 feet, congratulations you won't have to even consider if players would try to start fights at 600 feet.

And to anyone who has used a bow, such a limitation is immersion-breaking. Not to mention things like siege engines.

Instead, pcs should employ some tactics, and even pcs who are the melee or skill focused guys ought to carry some kind of long range option. Not every combat allows every pc to shine equally.

 

[Hussar]

The battle map that has been on the table since session start and was there before the players said "wait no, we want to back up and..."? Remember, it's a flick of the mouse & a couple of clicks nt fetishized minis & terrain. Eventually the gm resisting this will either crash into puppetry of PCs or mevsdungeon shaped outdoors & we are still talking about a system that provides players with multiple ways to state "but I have a thing that let's me ignore cover."

Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the bolded part. Can you rephrase that? If you have an engagement between the party and enemies at 600 feet across an open field, why is there a battle map on the table at all? Who put it there? What's actually ON that battlemap? Are you saying that the DM MUST use a battlemap in every single combat? That's pretty contrary to what D&D actually says.

 

[Reef]

Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the bolded part. Can you rephrase that? If you have an engagement between the party and enemies at 600 feet across an open field, why is there a battle map on the table at all? Who put it there? What's actually ON that battlemap? Are you saying that the DM MUST use a battlemap in every single combat? That's pretty contrary to what D&D actually says.

I’m obviously not them, but if I’m gathering it correctly, their players don’t trust that they’re not being screwed with if they can’t see every inch. Which is why they are resisting using TotM for long range contacts.