D&D 5E Why is WoTc still pushing AP's when the majority of gamers want something else?

Also, they don't know what new players would buy had they been given the option.

No one could actually upper-case, bolded Know that unless they had actually done it. In which case the investment would have already been sunk and the die cast. That's why the have to make an educated guess based on trends, survey, and experience. That's what market research is. If you think that they have made a systematic failure in their market research, and that there are in fact indicators out there (that you believe they are aware of) suggesting that their strategy is suboptimal, you should collect that data, write it up into a white paper, and submit it either to them or to public viewing (such that they might take notice). I for one would be very interested. I'm quite prepared to discover that I'm wrong about something. I think a lot of people here would be as well. It's just the compelling evidence that is missing.
 

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Corpsetaker

First Post
According to a Wizards survey, most people run their games using homebrew. Now this can mean anything from using an established setting but giving it your own stamp, or using a completely made up world.

Now Wizards always claimed they were using the surveys to give people what they want but it seems what people want doesn't align with that Wizards wants. When people say they run most of their games using homebrew then you would think they would be jumping to make more regional books, non setting books, and more DM's aids. I think this has been a product of the surveys all along but that's another topic.

So Wizards, we have told you what we want and how we run our games and yet you still try and shove AP's down our throats.

Why?

Laugh Remathilis, 77IM, Midknightsun, jasper, DM Magic and 1 others laughed with this post

I just want to say a big "Thank You" to Morris and the rest of the Enworld team for fixing the laugh button. It now makes people who try and abuse the laugh button by using it to make someone's post look bad look very foolish.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Yeah they do. Not to exact precision but a pretty darn good approximation. They know how many existed at date X (Cook and Dancey both confirmed that), attrition and gain rates with trend data going back decades, approximate defection numbers to Pathfinder and OSR and other editions, PHB 5e sales numbers, usage numbers at online playing platforms and conventions, and approximate internet discussion rates with controls. And that data can then be combined and compared to AP sales numbers. That's a lot of data to drill down to a fairly good approximation of the answer.

No they don't because it's physically impossible, unless they went around to every gamer in the world and got their answer. Please don't try and justify your argument with nonsense like that.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
But you do?

I mean, there are two possibilities here. Either it's all guesswork - in which case why should anyone take your guess more seriously than the guesses you are criticising?

Or else there is knowledge (or, at least, reasonable opinion based on systematic data collection and analysis): in which case, why should anyone think that you are doing a better job of this than WotC? WotC knows how many APs are sold. WotC has all sorts of information about how many D&D players there are (surveys; projections from sales trends; knowledge of organised play; following online trends; etc). What reason do you have for thinking that your preferred approach would be a commercially superior strategy?

I actually don't need to, never claimed I did. All I've done is shown that it's not exact science like people here try and claim it is. If someone is going to try and use this stuff as an exact answer then they need to include every angle and every possibility which doesn't happen.

As someone who works with the numbers of a big company, I can tell you that there is a lot of predictions that go on. There is no exact data that will give you the correct conclusions. You look at what you have and work from there.

Basically what Wizards is most likely going by is their PHB sales numbers. They figure everyone who plays probably has a PHB. I can tell you for a fact that is false.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's just the compelling evidence that is missing.
That's one way to (under)state it!

No they don't because it's physically impossible, unless they went around to every gamer in the world and got their answer. Please don't try and justify your argument with nonsense like that.
I actually don't need to, never claimed I did. All I've done is shown that it's not exact science like people here try and claim it is.
No one here has claimed that market research is an exact science. In fact, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] expressly stated the opposite ("pretty darn good approximation") and I used the phrase "reasonable opinion".

But you haven't shown anything. All you've provided is assertion.

If someone is going to try and use this stuff as an exact answer then they need to include every angle and every possibility which doesn't happen.

As someone who works with the numbers of a big company, I can tell you that there is a lot of predictions that go on. There is no exact data that will give you the correct conclusions. You look at what you have and work from there.

Basically what Wizards is most likely going by is their PHB sales numbers. They figure everyone who plays probably has a PHB. I can tell you for a fact that is false.
If you know that that is false, don't you think WotC might work it out? I mean, they are the company that deliberately published a Basic PDF that makes the game playable without buying a PHB. They probably didn't forget that they did that.

I've read the thread, so I know you're a one-time child prodigy who has no equal among the WotC staff. But even ordinary market researchers are probably capable of making some sense of their market based on some combination of data and intuition.

(Also - if the one market segment you're aware of that you believe WotC is ignoring is those who play the game without buying a PHB, what possible reason do you have to suppose that such people would buy the sorts of more esoteric publications that you are keen on?)
 
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cmad1977

Hero
That's one way to (under)state it!


No one here has claimed that market research is an exact science. In fact, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] expressly stated the opposite ("pretty darn good approximation") and I used the phrase "reasonable opinion".

But you haven't shown anything. All you've provided is assertion.

If you know that that is false, don't you think WotC might work it out? I mean, they are the company that deliberately published a Basic PDF that makes the game playable without buying a PHB. They probably didn't forget that they did that.

I've read the thread, so I know you're a one-time child prodigy who has no equal among the WotC staff. But even ordinary market researchers are probably capable of making some sense of their market based on some combination of data and intuition.

(Also - if the one market segment you're aware of that you believe WotC is ignoring is those who play the game without buying a PHB, what possible reason do you have to suppose that such people would buy the sorts of more esoteric publications that you are keen on?)

'I have no interest in purchasing a PHB.
But, oooh! A shiny new book of mechanical options for D&D! That's a must have. AND a campaign guide for the Forgotten Realms?!? Gotta have it!!'


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I actually don't need to, never claimed I did. All I've done is shown that it's not exact science like people here try and claim it is. If someone is going to try and use this stuff as an exact answer then they need to include every angle and every possibility which doesn't happen.

As someone who works with the numbers of a big company, I can tell you that there is a lot of predictions that go on. There is no exact data that will give you the correct conclusions. You look at what you have and work from there.

Basically what Wizards is most likely going by is their PHB sales numbers. They figure everyone who plays probably has a PHB. I can tell you for a fact that is false.

Of course there are a lot of predictions going on. And when they released 5e they predicted that a change in their publication model would boost sales of each product. And from what I've heard, it has. If the prediction works, you stick with it (and build on it).

Just because there may be other products that might sell well, they do have hard sales numbers that seem to indicate that the 5e plus their new publishing approach is working very, very well.

Anecdotally, current Amazon sales ranks (books in general, not RPGs):
HotDQ 5414 (Aug 2014)
RoT 7143 (Nov 2014)
PotA 6384 (Apr 2015)
OotA 6386 (Sep 2015)
SCAG 3212 (Nov 2015)
CoS 3395 (Mar 2016)
SKT 2815 (Sep 2016)

Without historical data, we can only look at what it showing now. But SCAG is selling around the same numbers of the last two APs despite being a year old. That's a good sign.

HotDQ is outselling all of the other APs that are over a year old, which is interesting as well (Particularly since folks don't seem to feel the sequel is a necessary finish). I think that supports my belief that the APs are best suited for non-campaign style groups, that pick up the book, make a group of characters, and play for several months. Fewer continued with the same characters to the direct sequel. The sequel on its own (like most sequels) probably isn't selling as a standalone. It's most likely only selling to those that choose to play the whole AP through both books.

As a business, they have taken surveys, and they have put together a business plan based on these surveys, and they have put that plan into action. The fact that sales seem to be up across the board is a pretty good indication that they are publishing what the players want. The fact that they continue to release two APs each year is probably a good sign that they continue to sell well.

They have been fairly conservative in their business model this time around. Late last year they added to the AP mix with SCAG. This year they did VGtM. So it seems that the current approach is 2 APs and 1 non-AP book. Perhaps they'll bump that up to 2 non-AP books. But it shows that not only is their business plan working, but they are building on it, and, it would appear, giving people what they want.

In any event, I think that the sales show that the business model is working, and the fact that SCAG is still selling well comparatively is a good sign that it did well too. So I wouldn't be surprised to see another book in a similar vein in the future.

It also wouldn't surprise me if we saw another campaign setting before we see another FR book. Expanding upon Ravenloft would make sense, since CoS seems to have done well.

I doubt they'll do a big FR Campaign Setting, since they'd pretty much duplicate what was released in SCAG and the APs for the Sword Coast. The Adventurer's League adventures are all set around the Moonsea, it would seem that a Moonsea/Heartlands approach would make sense for the next region.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Laugh Charles Rampant laughed with this post.

There was nothing funny about my post so I'm not sure why you are laughing. If I was laughing then you hitting the laugh button would make sense, but I wasn't. Not sure if you've had a look but it's been changed to " laugh with X", not "laugh at X".
 

ccs

41st lv DM
I actually don't need to, never claimed I did. All I've done is shown that it's not exact science like people here try and claim it is. If someone is going to try and use this stuff as an exact answer then they need to include every angle and every possibility which doesn't happen.

As someone who works with the numbers of a big company, I can tell you that there is a lot of predictions that go on. There is no exact data that will give you the correct conclusions. You look at what you have and work from there.

Basically what Wizards is most likely going by is their PHB sales numbers. They figure everyone who plays probably has a PHB. I can tell you for a fact that is false.

Well, however they're adding up their #s, they're getting an answer that indicates the best course of action is to sell us more APs.
 


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