taliesin15
First Post
There it is: this just doesn't make sense at all. Seems like what is called Alchemy is a grandiose term for potion-sniffing and making minor chemical solutions.
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why isn't Alchemy synergistic with Brew Potion?
- Thread starter taliesin15
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tigycho
Explorer
taliesin15 said:
Assume that Alchemy were synergistic with Brew Potion... What would that mean?
Many feats give a skill bonus of +2 to two related skills, or a +3/+4 to a single skill. Are you suggesting taking Brew Potion should have that effect on Alchemy?
Cuz I can't imagine what effects Alchemy can have on Brew Potion, since making a potion is a take the time and do it, or don't take the time to do it sort of thing.
I would say that, sure, I'd let you have a +2 to Alchemy checks if you had Brew Potion, but I'm a lenient DM. I let my players do pretty much anything they can make an effective argument for, as long as it doesn't break the game for anyone else.
Gez
First Post
I though about letting the Alchemy skill make you masterwork version of oils and potions. Like for other crafted things, you make the masterwork component separately, as far as rules are concerned.
The masterwork component is worth 45 gp and DC 15 for a level-0 spell, 90 gp and DC 16 for level 1, 180 DC 17 for level 2, and 270 and DC 18 for level 3. (Extrapolate as required if you have class abilities that lets you make potions for spells higher than level 3. 90 gp per level and DC 15+level.)
A masterwork potion gains a +1d4 bonus on a numerical effect if its instantaneous (e.g. masterwork potion of cure light wounds: 1d8+1d4+1--5).
(Maybe make that 1d3 for level 0, 1d6 for level 2, and 1d8 for level 3.)
Numbers may need a bit of tweaking, of course. BTW, I choose 90 because raw material components for crafted items cost 1/3 of the market price, so I wanted a multiple of 3.
The masterwork component is worth 45 gp and DC 15 for a level-0 spell, 90 gp and DC 16 for level 1, 180 DC 17 for level 2, and 270 and DC 18 for level 3. (Extrapolate as required if you have class abilities that lets you make potions for spells higher than level 3. 90 gp per level and DC 15+level.)
A masterwork potion gains a +1d4 bonus on a numerical effect if its instantaneous (e.g. masterwork potion of cure light wounds: 1d8+1d4+1--5).
(Maybe make that 1d3 for level 0, 1d6 for level 2, and 1d8 for level 3.)
Numbers may need a bit of tweaking, of course. BTW, I choose 90 because raw material components for crafted items cost 1/3 of the market price, so I wanted a multiple of 3.
Li Shenron
Legend
IIRC in 3.0 Alchemy was indeed synergistic with potions, not for making them but for identifying them you could make an Alchemy check.
IMHO it was removed in 3.5 (and put under Spellcraft) because a) Alchemy is not as popular as Spellcraft and identifying potion is a common task, and b) because the Alchemy check took a long time (and even gp I think) to represent that it was not a magical procedure.
Now that Alchemy has changed into something semi-magical (you can't take Alchemy unless you're a spellcaster in 3.5), it would make even more sense than before to use an Alchemy check for potion identification.
IMHO it was removed in 3.5 (and put under Spellcraft) because a) Alchemy is not as popular as Spellcraft and identifying potion is a common task, and b) because the Alchemy check took a long time (and even gp I think) to represent that it was not a magical procedure.
Now that Alchemy has changed into something semi-magical (you can't take Alchemy unless you're a spellcaster in 3.5), it would make even more sense than before to use an Alchemy check for potion identification.
tigycho
Explorer
Gez said:
Maybe the masterwork versions of the potions should use metamagic feats as baselines for the effects you can apply. For example, you are using alchemy to add the effects of Empower to your potion (rather than using the feat itself.. maybe because you don't have it).
The DC of doing so might be 15+the spelllevel after applying the metamagic.
This let's you use Alchemy as a stand-in to metamagic feats, but only when making potions, and there is a chance of failure and losing your xp and gp investment.
Another way I just thought of is you could use Alchemy to speed up the brewing process, allowing you to make them twice as fast. I'd suggest a DC of 20+potion level there.
Thoughts?
taliesin15
First Post
Seems to me that what Alchemy boils down to be should be re-labeled "Potion Identification" or a skill of Craft...and that Brew Potion is simply one particular facet of Alchemy, which would include things like making acids, oils, holy waters, and further than that, turning lead into gold, being able to make things like The Golden Fleece. That is if we're following what Alchemy was both in RL and fantasy/myth.
I'm still chewing on Gez and Tigycho's suggestions...one thing though, what about manufacture of substances like Antitoxin, and other healing tinctures not listed but easily imagined: potions for a bad cough, a serum for a fever, a balm for sore muscles--given, these aren't exactly Potions of Healing, but it seems like things like this would be pervasive in most fantasy milieus (plus of course bogus snakeoil quack-cures), and they wouldn't necessarily be magical--I can easily imagine a player saying "my character has 12 ranks in Apothecary, it seems like she would be able to make solutions to cure many diseases and neutralize poisons, and wouldn't have to necessarily know Brew Potion or Alchemy"
this is a tricky part of the rules for me as a DM since I'm running a low tech high magic milieu where things like potions made by witches and hedge-wizards would be common...in case yr interested, take a look at this site, which details even older RW magical tradition:
http://www.lib.umich.edu/pap/magic/recipe-books.html
I'm still chewing on Gez and Tigycho's suggestions...one thing though, what about manufacture of substances like Antitoxin, and other healing tinctures not listed but easily imagined: potions for a bad cough, a serum for a fever, a balm for sore muscles--given, these aren't exactly Potions of Healing, but it seems like things like this would be pervasive in most fantasy milieus (plus of course bogus snakeoil quack-cures), and they wouldn't necessarily be magical--I can easily imagine a player saying "my character has 12 ranks in Apothecary, it seems like she would be able to make solutions to cure many diseases and neutralize poisons, and wouldn't have to necessarily know Brew Potion or Alchemy"
this is a tricky part of the rules for me as a DM since I'm running a low tech high magic milieu where things like potions made by witches and hedge-wizards would be common...in case yr interested, take a look at this site, which details even older RW magical tradition:
http://www.lib.umich.edu/pap/magic/recipe-books.html
taliesin15 said:
Uhm, in 3.5, it is: Alchemy became Craft (alchemy).
Brew potion is for making temporary magic items that contain "a spell in a bottle".
Alchemy is used for creating quasi-magical items (Thunderstones, Tindertwigs, etc.) that are NOT "spells in a bottle" (but which DO require some spellcasting ability to make).
One of the variants in Unearthed Arcana develops the use of Craft Points. Craft Points are "spent" to make items (magical, alchemical, or non-magical). The premise is that the character has been working on the item in question while camped or while waiting for things to happen. S/he pays the Craft Point cost to "finish it overnight", and pays a reduced Craft Point cost if s/he takes the normal amount of time to craft the item.
As part of this system, new feats are added, and the existing Item Creation feats are modified to add more points to your Craft Point pool. One of the new feats is Craft Alchemical Item, which allows non-spellcasters to use Craft (alchemy) to make the usual run of quasi-magical items.
drnuncheon
Explorer
taliesin15 said:
For that matter, why isn't Craft(weaponsmith) or (armorsmith) synergistic with making magical weapons and armor? I think you're onto something here although if it keeps going in the direction my mind is taking it, it would be better off in House Rules...
J
taliesin15
First Post
silveras writes:
[something about the 3.5 changes]
I pretty much have found that 3.5 isn't much of an improvement on 3.0, so I look on it with mostly disregard. The revision of Alchemy is an example of something going from bad to worse.
Alchemy is used for creating quasi-magical items (Thunderstones, Tindertwigs, etc.) that are NOT "spells in a bottle" (but which DO require some spellcasting ability to make).
yeah, exactly. Making substances that aren't particularly magical in nature, and are really too high tech for a medieval (maybe even Renaissance) milieu
drmuncheon's comments about Craft: armor/weapon smithing are *right on the money*--its simply put something broken in the system--IMC I've changed all that to something more sensible, I just wonder why these things are so flawed in the rules in the first place (and weren't fixed in 3.5)
[something about the 3.5 changes]
I pretty much have found that 3.5 isn't much of an improvement on 3.0, so I look on it with mostly disregard. The revision of Alchemy is an example of something going from bad to worse.
Alchemy is used for creating quasi-magical items (Thunderstones, Tindertwigs, etc.) that are NOT "spells in a bottle" (but which DO require some spellcasting ability to make).
yeah, exactly. Making substances that aren't particularly magical in nature, and are really too high tech for a medieval (maybe even Renaissance) milieu
drmuncheon's comments about Craft: armor/weapon smithing are *right on the money*--its simply put something broken in the system--IMC I've changed all that to something more sensible, I just wonder why these things are so flawed in the rules in the first place (and weren't fixed in 3.5)
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