Why LEVEL is never a prerequisite for PrCls
- Thread starter Li Shenron
- Start date
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
I see the point of some of the requirements but I really don't think it would be awful to ditch them.
The blackgaurd is an excellent example. Why would you need any prerequisites at all other than base level? There are numerous stories in fiction of a heroic warrior falling from grace. None of them feature him brushing up on his Hide skill a month or two before facing his personal tragedy.
And if you want to get creative with some of the spellcasting PrCs it can be really hard to balance them for the wizard and the sorcerer. They really are quite different and there are plenty of PrCs that are good for one but not the other. Why not just drop the pretense?
Same thing for the bard PrCs that improve generic spellcasting level. They have to toss on all these requirements so that a wizard can't pick it up. They may as well just break down and say "Bard level 6".
I agree that the Shadowdancer is a good example of a PrC that needs more specialized requirements. But there are plenty of PrCs that don't.
The blackgaurd is an excellent example. Why would you need any prerequisites at all other than base level? There are numerous stories in fiction of a heroic warrior falling from grace. None of them feature him brushing up on his Hide skill a month or two before facing his personal tragedy.
And if you want to get creative with some of the spellcasting PrCs it can be really hard to balance them for the wizard and the sorcerer. They really are quite different and there are plenty of PrCs that are good for one but not the other. Why not just drop the pretense?
Same thing for the bard PrCs that improve generic spellcasting level. They have to toss on all these requirements so that a wizard can't pick it up. They may as well just break down and say "Bard level 6".
I agree that the Shadowdancer is a good example of a PrC that needs more specialized requirements. But there are plenty of PrCs that don't.
I have grow tired of a character being planned out from 1st to 20th level with exactly what skills and feats need to be taken in order to qualify for a given prestige class at which level.
I would like a more organic method in which I could present an opportunity for the warrior to study with an organization in order to qualify to take levels in a prestige class. Sure certain classes would get much more out of training with the Shadowdancers. Rogues and rangers would do well as they have the skills to be invited and actually use the abilities the class grants, but if a fighter was interested in training with them and convinced them to train him, why can the character not take levels in the prestige class. It makes it impossible to introduce prestige classes into the game unless the character is aiming for them at the start. I would like for the prestige classes to be more GM controlled and offered as rewards, but the current system does not allow this without handwaving the requirements away.
I would like a more organic method in which I could present an opportunity for the warrior to study with an organization in order to qualify to take levels in a prestige class. Sure certain classes would get much more out of training with the Shadowdancers. Rogues and rangers would do well as they have the skills to be invited and actually use the abilities the class grants, but if a fighter was interested in training with them and convinced them to train him, why can the character not take levels in the prestige class. It makes it impossible to introduce prestige classes into the game unless the character is aiming for them at the start. I would like for the prestige classes to be more GM controlled and offered as rewards, but the current system does not allow this without handwaving the requirements away.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
BiggusGeekus said:
Because a Blackguard isn't "Generic Evil Knight #4."
A heroic warrior falling from grace is one whose alignment has changed - you don't really need a PrC for that.
The Blackguard is "Evil Knight Who Has Purposefully Sought Out An Evil Outsider and Made a Pact With It In Order To Gain Certain Temporal Powers."
A blackguard is the heroic warrior who fell from grace and then, later on, embraced his dark side strongly enough to pledge himself heart and soul to Evil. Now, whether or not the requirements accurately reflect this paradigm is another question entirely.
Similarly, the Assassin PrC isn't "Guy Who Kills Others For Money." You don't need a PrC for that. The Assassin PrC is "Guy Who Belongs To Shadowy Mystical Cabal Of Hired Knives, Known For Terrorizing Cities And Kingdoms."
If you want a Generic Evil Knight PrC, then create one (and maybe it looks a lot like the BG; I dunno).
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
ken-ichi said:
Because he doesn't know enough to benefit from the training they have to offer.
It's like asking why a Doctoral Physics program won't let anyone walk in and study with them - you need a certain amount of applicable knowledge before what they have to teach would even make sense to you.
And, if you want to make this happen, as the DM, you can. Either: 1) Encourage the player to focus less on martial prowess and more on being sneaky (i.e., multiclass with Rogue for awhile), or 2) Create a new 3-level PrC called "Apprentice Shadowdancer" that has Hide as a class skill, and let the Fighter take levels in that.
Voila!
This is completely not true, and frankly it's one of the most annoying things to read about PrCs because it is so widespread.
:boggle:
PrCs are completely under DM control.
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Fair enough.
The Blackguard's requirements are
[QUOTE="3.5 SRD]]Alignment: Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks.
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack.
Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else[/QUOTE]
Ok, the knoweldge (religion) makes sense. But why are all evil outsiders interested in a strong melee fighter who can hide? The Improved Sunder and PA feats aren't great for finesse fighters. The Hide requirement burns 10 skill points for the fighter, paladin, and barbarian (rangers luck out here). There are very few powergaming reasons to go into blackgaurd and if you're roleplaying then I'd argue you should be dropping the requirements anyway.
Whoever this evil outsider is that's churing out all the blackguards, he really needs some help in character optimization.
delericho
Legend
I've been thinking about this quite a bit of late, and I think it might not be a bad idea to have a minimum character level on some PrCs, coupled with a set of suitable other requirements.
So, for example, for a hugely sneaky PrC such as the Shadowdancer, I'd like to see a requirement of, say Hide 6 ranks, Level 5+.
I see a couple of advantages to this. Firstly, it means that there needn't be one true way to get into a class, as often seems to be the case (really, for the optimal Shadowdancer build, you need 5 levels of Rogue to start), and removes the silliness that can occur if a player picks up a lot of ranks in a particular skill late on, solely to get into the chosen class.
The final advantage is that I can introduce Prestige Classes to the campaign later on, without the PCs being ineligible since they haven't built their characters towards those classes since level 1. Or, alternatively, a PC can be designed to head towards one PrC, but then change direction due to campaign events, and end up following another approach.
(Take, for example, the Blackguard. Virtually no Paladin will ever actually qualify for this class, as it requires some feat and skill choices that just aren't going to happen. Yet this is one PrC that a fallen paladin should almost qualify for by definition.)
So, for example, for a hugely sneaky PrC such as the Shadowdancer, I'd like to see a requirement of, say Hide 6 ranks, Level 5+.
I see a couple of advantages to this. Firstly, it means that there needn't be one true way to get into a class, as often seems to be the case (really, for the optimal Shadowdancer build, you need 5 levels of Rogue to start), and removes the silliness that can occur if a player picks up a lot of ranks in a particular skill late on, solely to get into the chosen class.
The final advantage is that I can introduce Prestige Classes to the campaign later on, without the PCs being ineligible since they haven't built their characters towards those classes since level 1. Or, alternatively, a PC can be designed to head towards one PrC, but then change direction due to campaign events, and end up following another approach.
(Take, for example, the Blackguard. Virtually no Paladin will ever actually qualify for this class, as it requires some feat and skill choices that just aren't going to happen. Yet this is one PrC that a fallen paladin should almost qualify for by definition.)
painandgreed
First Post
The way I see it is that PrCs are training that teaches skills that require certain requirements to learn the new skills. Advanced training so to speak. If they didn't require aditional requirements, then it would be a base class. Same if it required a set level in a certain class. There's no reason to require just "level X" because an amount of levels isn't a requirement needed for new skills. The abilities learned as a shadow dancer require dance and other items to make use of them, Being a certain level of any class describes nothing about the players capabilities.
I don't think that it takes constant planning from day one to join any PrC. You might have to pick up a level or two in some other clss to learn the skills you need, but that seems reasonable that you'd have to learn skills that would be needed to learn other skills you want. The only time it takes constant planning from level 1 to join a PrC is when you are planning from level 1 to join a PrC. Any fighter type of 6th or higher level could probably become a blackguard by getting a level of rogue, again signifying the fall of the fighter type into less reputable roles.
I don't think that it takes constant planning from day one to join any PrC. You might have to pick up a level or two in some other clss to learn the skills you need, but that seems reasonable that you'd have to learn skills that would be needed to learn other skills you want. The only time it takes constant planning from level 1 to join a PrC is when you are planning from level 1 to join a PrC. Any fighter type of 6th or higher level could probably become a blackguard by getting a level of rogue, again signifying the fall of the fighter type into less reputable roles.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
BiggusGeekus said:
Not every evil outsider IS interested in strong melee fighters who can hide. But the ones who help in the creation of black guards do in this case.
Seriously, if you don't agree with some of the prerequisites, change them to what you want them to be. These are prestige classes and are under DM control. Tweak them to fit your campaign.
By the way, I generally agree that a black guard's prerequistes should be more geared toward what a paladin would normally have since there are special perks for being a fallen paladin. That said, I believe the black guard is based more on the 1st edition NPC anti-paladin class than the concept of a fallen paladin. That character wasn't a fallen paladin at all but a sneaky, backstabbing, cowardly, unholy warrior.
And the choice the designers made isn't wrong. It fits a particular conception of theirs which is well within the bounds of creative art. But, as DM you can change it.
