Why LEVEL is never a prerequisite for PrCls

[billd91]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit of late, and I think it might not be a bad idea to have a minimum character level on some PrCs, coupled with a set of suitable other requirements.

So, for example, for a hugely sneaky PrC such as the Shadowdancer, I'd like to see a requirement of, say Hide 6 ranks, Level 5+.

I see a couple of advantages to this. Firstly, it means that there needn't be one true way to get into a class, as often seems to be the case (really, for the optimal Shadowdancer build, you need 5 levels of Rogue to start), and removes the silliness that can occur if a player picks up a lot of ranks in a particular skill late on, solely to get into the chosen class.

The final advantage is that I can introduce Prestige Classes to the campaign later on, without the PCs being ineligible since they haven't built their characters towards those classes since level 1. Or, alternatively, a PC can be designed to head towards one PrC, but then change direction due to campaign events, and end up following another approach.

If a PC needs to be built from level 1 to make it into a prestige class, then I think you've built the prestige class wrong. Anything that you need to plan for from level 1 shouldn't be a prestige class, it should be an alternative full class.
Sure, some players might want to start building the character from level 1 with the prestige class in mind, but that's a function of player choice, not prestige class requirement.

You should build the PrC with the requirements you think fit the class, what powers it will build on, what proofs of commitment you need that the PC is seriously pursuing that path. If you introduce the class late and nobody can qualify for it at the earliest possible time it could be acquired, so what? That doesn't matter. They can multiclass into something else to get a jump start on the requirements they still need to make up and pick up the PrC whenever they manage to qualify. That's the beauty of PrCs now. There's no single path to get into them. Sure, there might be some powergaming optimizing paths relative to others, but again, so what? There's nothing written in stone that a PC has to be best optimized for picking up certain PrCs.

I put out a list of some of the prestige classes available to my players, but not all of them. Some of them are PrCs their PCs wouldn't even know existed until revealed by play. And if they can't qualify for them at first opportunity, no big deal. They can start working on it when they learn what they have to do.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Personally, I'd just say the BG's requirements kind of suck. Hide doesn't make sense, but all the rest do. Jack up Knowledge (religion) to 10 ranks and maybe plug Knowledge (the planes) 2 ranks into the side of it. The feats make sense for a bloodthirsty engine of unholy destruction, so no biggie.

Adding a level requirement to a PrC is something I don't want to do, because I want to allow my characters to organically grow into the PrC, not just suddenly gain levels in it. If the requirements exist, that means that anyone can get it -- a Shadowdancer doesn't need to be a specialized hider, but if he doesn't decide to hide at all before taking the class (by not taking a single rogue level!), he doesn't desrve to get into the class early. The powers obviously aren't important enough if you don't want to make the nessecary sacrifices to get them.

Whether a swashbuckler, a bard, a divine orator, a favored soul, a fighter, or a ninja, to gain levels in a PrC is a special calling, and it should require a special set of skills, and there is no reason that I can see to hang those skills on something as vaguely defined as level. Even character level (monsters with "empty levels"?)

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I think characterizing a prestige class by listing its requirements in abilities and powers (BAB, Skill ranks, etc) feels less metagamey. You're focusing on the actual abilities needed to enter the class. Caracter level, by comparison, is one level abstracted from the character's actual abilities. Character level actually implies very little about what the PC can and cannot do since it has nothing to do with any particular class chosen. And I think for prestige classes, we're more concerned with what the character can actually do.

The only problem I have with this argument is that the factors used - base attack bonus, and skill ranks - are also abstracted from the characters abilities. With the wizard shadow dancer example - if the wiard is an elf with a high dex and has invested valuable feats in boosting his hide, he could conceivably be better at hiding than the rogue who qualified for the PrC two levels ago... but entry to the class is limited based on the more metagamy (and level dependant) skill ranks, rather than total skill modifier. If you just gave in and converted the effective character level requirement to an actual character level requirement and made the skill or attack roll requirements based off total modifier isntead of base ranks, you would see more creative backgrounds for the PrCs and IMO be no more or less metagamey than the requirements already are.

edit: I might be missing something, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that level should be the only requirement for a PrC. Simply that since the requirements for most are set up intentionly to set a minimum level, that part of it could be pulled out and made explicit, while the other requirements represented specialization of a less metagame nature. Compare the requirements "10 ranks in Weeble wobbling" to "Level 7 and Weeble wobbling modifier +13". Both require a minumum level and that the character have focused some effort on learning to wobble Weebles well, but the first is considered more proper than the second. Why?

 

[billd91]

The only problem I have with this argument is that the factors used - base attack bonus, and skill ranks - are also abstracted from the characters abilities. With the wizard shadow dancer example - if the wiard is an elf with a high dex and has invested valuable feats in boosting his hide, he could conceivably be better at hiding than the rogue who qualified for the PrC two levels ago... but entry to the class is limited based on the more metagamy (and level dependant) skill ranks, rather than total skill modifier. If you just gave in and converted the effective character level requirement to an actual character level requirement and made the skill or attack roll requirements based off total modifier isntead of base ranks, you would see more creative backgrounds for the PrCs and IMO be no more or less metagamey than the requirements already are.

Note that I said they were less metagamey, not completely non-metagamey. I can see keeping to the base figures because they represent a character's actual investment in those skills and powers and not just raw talent. Looking at the requirements like this, they represent the refinements and understanding built up by the character of those particular abilities. Adding in the specific additional modifiers like stat boosts and things that aren't won through the investment of experience could indicate that the character is good at what he does, but he doesn't really understand the true workings of the skill (ability, whatever).

The character with a good dex, small size modifier, wearing camouflage may be very good at hiding, but not because he really knows how to hide.

 

[diaglo]

Whoever this evil outsider is that's churing out all the blackguards, he really needs some help in character optimization.

his name is Andy Collins. and i agree with you BG.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Note that I said they were less metagamey, not completely non-metagamey. I can see keeping to the base figures because they represent a character's actual investment in those skills and powers and not just raw talent. Looking at the requirements like this, they represent the refinements and understanding built up by the character of those particular abilities. Adding in the specific additional modifiers like stat boosts and things that aren't won through the investment of experience could indicate that the character is good at what he does, but he doesn't really understand the true workings of the skill (ability, whatever).

The character with a good dex, small size modifier, wearing camouflage may be very good at hiding, but not because he really knows how to hide.

I'm not sure I see the problem. There are people in this world who get good at something by working at it like crazy, and those who get good at it by raw barely focused talent. In a supernatural class like the shadowdancer, who is really to say that one better prepares you for the "next level" than the other? And with the investment of feats in the mix especially?

I wouldn't allow equipment modifiers to effect PrC entry, but I'm not seeing the argument that structured learning is more in keeping with all or even most PrC requirements than natural talent.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Because he doesn't know enough to benefit from the training they have to offer.

And, if you want to make this happen, as the DM, you can. Either: 1) Encourage the player to focus less on martial prowess and more on being sneaky (i.e., multiclass with Rogue for awhile), or 2) Create a new 3-level PrC called "Apprentice Shadowdancer" that has Hide as a class skill, and let the Fighter take levels in that.

I don't know how off-topic this is, exactly, but why not take the clue from D20 Modern and institute the Advanced Class between base class and PrC? Just slide an elastic AdC in there called "X Apprentice" where X is whatever Prc you want to apply for.
Over the course of however many levels (you'd want to keep it low, but not insultingly low, it's a bridge to a goal, not a reward) you get to qualify for the PrC you want (BAB rises to whatever, and feats or skills needed are learned, etc).
It'd be tough to come up with one generic AdC that would fit all PrCs, but if you could it's be alchemic gold.

(I may have to work on that, myself...)

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I don't know how off-topic this is, exactly, but why not take the clue from D20 Modern and institute the Advanced Class between base class and PrC?

I have to say, I don't really get the difference between advanced classes and PrCs.

I like the idea though. A two or three level "appreticeship" sounds cool.

 

[MarauderX]

How about doing away with leveling and going with an XP buy system? Check out 'Buy the Numbers' as it can get you what you want by putting a value on abilities. You pick up the stuff you want as soon as you earn the XP for it. Do away with the cumbersome lameness that you had to put up with by leveling and sacrificing a BAB or saves or whatever you really might want your PC to have in a campaign. It did win an ENnie for a reason.

 

[Wolv0rine]

I have to say, I don't really get the difference between advanced classes and PrCs.

I like the idea though. A two or three level "appreticeship" sounds cool.

The way I understand it, a PrC is more specific and focused than an AdC. If it helps any, I always considered the D&D core classes as AdCs in the Base-AdC-PrC scheme. So (all off the top of my head, I'm aware this is likely not technically correct, this is meant as analogy here) You might go from Strong Hero to Soldier to Navty SEAL.
Although you'd definately need more than 2 or 3 levels. 5 minimum if for No other reason than (like I said before) it's not a reward or a cool new class to have, it's a bridge to an otherwise unattainable goal. It should be a little of a pain in the arse, just because of the exception you're asking from the RAW.