Why no Clr/Rog PrC?

[Thanee]

That class seems fairly overpowered, tho. Lower entry cost (you can go there after 6 levels already), some abilities totally not suitable (i.e. HiPS !? If anything, that should be something an arcane trickster can do, since they have decent illusion magic available), some really overpowered abilities (spontaneous access to a full domain worth of spells!?), even more benefits than the already pretty good arcane trickster.

Looks like the guy has written an overpowered PrC for himself, like most of the fan-created PrC (and even some official ones )...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Malin Genie]

That class seems fairly overpowered, tho. Lower entry cost (you can go there after 6 levels already), some abilities totally not suitable (i.e. HiPS !? If anything, that should be something an arcane trickster can do, since they have decent illusion magic available), some really overpowered abilities (spontaneous access to a full domain worth of spells!?), even more benefits than the already pretty good arcane trickster.

Looks like the guy has written an overpowered PrC for himself, like most of the fan-created PrC (and even some official ones )...

Bye
Thanee

OK, on second thoghts maybe it is a little overpowered - but at least it's in the right direction. I disagree that the Black Flame Zealot is a viable parallel - 1/2 spellcasting and 1/3 Sneak Attack makes it only very slightly better than continuing to multiclass with even levels - so while it may or may not be a 'good' PrC taking into account the special abilities, it isn't what I had in mind. And as to the 'it's not so bad, you give up caster levels for some versatility' argument - if sub-optimum caster level weren't such a problem, why would we need the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge (or more to the point, why would we consider them generally balanced classes?)

Taking the Divine Trickster, I'd probably (1) make the 'spend a turn attempt to deal Sneak Attack dice against an undead' ability a standard action, to allow a nasty blow against undead without allowing multi-round full-attacking carnage (2) remove Trap Guidance, Slippery Mind and Hide In Plain Sight and (3) make Domain Access 1/day and Domain Access 2/day into the 5th and 9th level abilities. After all, the ability to advance spellcaster level *and* get Sneak Attack and nice skills is supposed to be the point of the class; the special abilities shouldn't add too much.

I'm not sure about entry levels - 3/3 seems too low, 5/4 too high - maybe require 3rd cleric/4th rogue or 5th cleric/3rd rogue? Although this thread is starting to veer very much into House Rules territory - sorry mods.

Back to the original question - I'm (obviously) of the view that Clr/Rog is not viable to mid/high levels without a PrC corresponding to the ArT/EKn/MyT, and that it was an oversight to leave it out of the DMG/Complete Divine (maybe waiting for the Complete Adventurer? I can only hope....) Anyone other than Darklone feel that Clr/Rog is viable as written to mid/high levels?

 

[Darklone]

Last Clr/Rog3 that I saw was viable till level 15. For me, that's high levels... Epic stuff may be different.

The Rog/Wiz or other combinations for the arcane spellcasters for which multiclass PrClasses exist are necessary because the arcane dudes only have their spellcasting. The cleric has a lot more to offer, see above. Even without spells, he's a secondary fighter often stronger than a rogue.

 

[Malin Genie]

In the campaigns I've seen, past mid-levels Clerics are not really physical combatants; they rely on spells for helping allies / hurting opponents. Perhaps in a desperate situation a Clr15 might pull out the mace and smack something with it, but until she runs out of spells she'll deal more damage with Flame Strikes, Searing Lights, Fire Storms, Destructions, Slay Livings, Harms, Summoned creatures and/or keeping the Fighters Healed and buffed.

A Clr12/Rog3 has a lower caster level (meaning not only fewer damage dice or lower duration but also harder to penetrate SR, easier to dispel his buffs, etc...) and can't access any of the 7th and 8th level spells a Clr15 can - how often did he use his 2d6 Sneak Attack or three levels' worth of Rogue skills? Enough to compensate for the loss of a decent chunk of spellcasting power?

 

[Darklone]

Practiced Spellcaster helps a lot. Evasion saved him more often than I remember. Sneak skills were important in that campaign though.

Looks like you didn't see many Divine Power or Righteous Might melee monster clerics ?

 

[Malin Genie]

I've already stated I think Clr/Ftr has a lot of synergies and I agree a pure Cleric with good physical stats can fight well given a couple of rounds to buff ... but I still don't see the relevance to Clr/Rog.

Practiced Spellcaster certainly helps (perhaps too much in the case of ATr/EKn/MTh which were designed before the Feat existed and whose abilities were in compensation for the reduced casting abilities IMHO) but it's still a loss of very powerful higher-end spells for some low-level Rogue abilities. A combat monster cleric might get come benefit from the Sneak Attack in flanking - but will either not get Evasion and sneaking or will forfeit heavy armour...

Clr12/Rog3 might be a borderline reasonable choice for a 15th level character (especially with PS) but would you consider a Clr7/Rog8 to ever be effective?

 

[ruleslawyer]

And as to the 'it's not so bad, you give up caster levels for some versatility' argument - if sub-optimum caster level weren't such a problem, why would we need the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge (or more to the point, why would we consider them generally balanced classes?)

Because arcane spellcasters are fragile things that lose a LOT by not being able to access highest-level spells and losing spell penetration ability. Moreover, in the case of the arcane trickster and EK, the non-spellcasting component (rogue or fighter) loses hp and BAB by taking spellcasting levels. Clerics, OTOH, excel at buffing rather than direct damage, thus making the 3-level spellcasting hit less critical, and contribute hp, BAB, and domain abilities to their non-spellcasting component, rather than subtracting class abilities. Unlike in the case of the wizard component in the MT, a rogue doesn't sacrifice very much by having levels of cleric, since a rogue doesn't have a critical dependence on spell access and caster level. Thus, the Divine Trickster wins out on all counts; it's a rogue with a good Will save, a better Fort save, domain powers, slightly improved hit points, kewl powers (sneak attacking undead, domain spontaneous casting, and Wis bonus to certain skill checks would all make MIGHTY "signature" PrC features on their own), and 13 levels of cleric spellcasting by 16th level, in exchange for +2d6 sneak attack damage (offset by the fact that the rogue can SA with touch spells and can use spells to create SA conditions), skill points, and some minor MAD.

 

[Thanee]

but I still don't see the relevance to Clr/Rog.

Having played a Rog/Clr (Rog 2 only) from 1st through 14th level, I can tell you what the relevance is (beyond background considerations, of course).

You have a character that is as capable as a full rogue at finding and removing traps, decent at stealth, almost immune to reflex save spells, while still being almost as good as a pure cleric. Sure, losing one spell level worth of spells hurts, but a cleric can take this much better than a wizard can. With Practiced Spellcaster there wouldn't even be a notable difference in combat efficiency at this level, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

And as to the 'it's not so bad, you give up caster levels for some versatility' argument - if sub-optimum caster level weren't such a problem, why would we need the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge (or more to the point, why would we consider them generally balanced classes?)

That would be because the Mystic Theurge & Eldritch Knight receive absolutely no special abilities in their PrC beyond spell-casting progression. Black Flame Zealot PrC does. As has been stated, cleric's don't necessarily need the full-casting progression as the arcane casters so desperately need. All you need are a few key spells, Practised Spell-Caster feat would be nice too, for the proper buffs to make a rather more survivable sneak-attacking rogue in melee. A rather nasty combination especially if they get a chance to buff and sneak up on their targets as the asssassin they are would do, not bad at all, and a PrC I wouldn't dismiss too easily. Though it doesn't fit the nice versatile-adventurer cler/rog that most might envision. Though what PrCs are somehow suppose to provide a more versitile build, I haven't the foggiest...

I'm sure this has been said before but, there's nothing wrong with just tweaking the arcane trcikster into a divien trickster with all the same abilities and just altering some of the prereqs to match that of a divine-caster.

After all, the ability to advance spellcaster level *and* get Sneak Attack and nice skills is supposed to be the point of the class; the special abilities shouldn't add too much.

I believe this had something to do with the PrC being too good though lol...again, what's wrong with just tweaking the Arcane Trickster and using that?

Back to the original question - I'm (obviously) of the view that Clr/Rog is not viable to mid/high levels without a PrC corresponding to the ArT/EKn/MyT, and that it was an oversight to leave it out of the DMG/Complete Divine (maybe waiting for the Complete Adventurer? I can only hope....) Anyone other than Darklone feel that Clr/Rog is viable as written to mid/high levels?

Mid-levels I can see this particular mutli-class being useful but possibly beginning to run into problems, especially in only a 4-person party.

I don't think it was an oversight, mostly it was a niche character-type not in high demand or seen often enough to maerit consideration just yet. You're probably right about the final complete book, where we'll probably see 1 other PrC for the multi-class emerge. How many Cleric/Bard PrCs are there? Or why not more Cleric/Wizard PrCs (just one!?)? Why can't we have an appropriate PrC for a nature priest (i.e. Cleric/Druid multi-class!?!). I wouldn't go over board on this one, you could argue lot's of PrCs are ignoring possible multi-classes going this route. IOW, not too big a deal, but fun to come up with your own stuffs for a homebrew setting where such multi-classes are more common, cool.

 

[Malin Genie]

Most of the arguments I've seen put forward for effective Clr/Rog multiclasses are dips into a couple of levels of Rogue for Evasion and some skills, arguing that the loss of one spell level's access is a reasonable cost.
What about taking it further? Would anyone argue 6 Rogue levels would be worth going from being able to Heal to not even able to Restore?

A quick dip into Rogue (especially at first level) can be a nice combination for a Wizard (who gains the additional advantage over the Clr/Rog that Int is primary spellcasting stat and so allows for even more Rog skills) or Sorceror - but they still get the Arcane Trickster class. It remains my opinion that the loss of more than a couple of spellcasting levels is crippling to a spellcaster, and so a caster/X multiclass is only really viable with some way of allowing both casting ability and X to progress once you've taken more than a couple of levels of X.